Advocacy Overdrive - Help get the truth out about a dog attack

I am editing my comments because my client who was being discussed does not deserve the disrespect being shown in the responses.

I disagree that "Dogs do not simply attack humans without provocations or a history of abuse and neglect."  There are certainly dogs who attack humans without provocations or a history of abuse or neglect.  They are probably not normal, just as humans who attack humans without provocation or a history of abuse or neglect are not normal.  I believe it is important to be accurate when making statements such as this. 

Thank you,

Greta Kaplan, CDBC, CPDT* Companion Animal Solutions* Portland, OR USA

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Greta Kaplan, CDBC, CPDT* Companion Animal Solutions* Portland, OR USA

Greta

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Thanks for responding. Sorry to hear about your client’s dog passing.

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Humans are responsible for breeding dogs, evaluating their behavior, training etc…Dogs that are involved in these types of incidents where they maul people are not "accidents", they are also not dogs who are owned by dedicated owners, such as the clients you speak of. Dogs are innocent, and are by and large a safe risk. The trouble is people see a news story and make up their minds about an incident, and thus a breed of dogs becomes even more vilified.

You can use examples of dogs with illness or some type of genetic malfunction that makes them more aggressive, that is not what I am talking about, and I think you know that. Dogs that are aggressive do not necessarily attack. The dog in this story and many other stories like this one do have a history of neglect and abuse. Also bear in mind we live in a world where one trainers/owners version of abuse is another’s tool for training and maintaining a dog. Far too many people are prone to taking harsh punitive measures that at some point are not able to be tolerated by the dog. Dogs view the world as safe or unsafe, and they do not have all those intellectual capabilities that humans have, if they did there would be more dogs not taking the abuse they have heaped on them by hack trainers and uneducated owners. Even with all that, they only really go off and kill a human roughly 20 times a year. The press never details that, nor has anyone involved in these stories to explain that.

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The criterion that surrounds dog attacks can be all or in part, but one of them is at least always present.  I have taken this research from The Pit bull Placebo, by Karen Delise.

It just so happens; that with more digging, I found out that indeed this dog has been in the hands of ignorant and negligent people since the beginning. It is always the humans responsibility, just like your great clients, if that dog had been with other people it would be a different story. 

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The point of my blog was not to be poetic or necessarily perfect from a written standpoint, the rhetoric is intentional because I am sick of the press reporting half the story! Hopefully it will inspire people to post similar type blogs with contact info and some insight about the HUMANS involved in dog incidents, hopefully motivating people to contact the press and authorities to get the real story. If you read my other blogs you’ll see quite few different tones throughout.

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You seem like a knowledgeable person and a caring dog trainer, just curious; did you contact any of the press or authorities I listed? Do you ever contact people in the press when a dog incident happens in OR?

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Nitpick all you want, I’m not trippin’ on it, but while you nitpick another nail was put in the proverbial coffin for dog known as Pit Bull, and if you know anything about me, you know I can’t sit by and watch that happen.

Thanks for your 2 cents!

Be well…

Drayton Michaels CTC www.pitbullguru.com www.urbandawgs.com

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Greta Kaplan, CDBC, CPDT* Companion Animal Solutions* Portland, OR USA

Well said, Greta.  Disingenous indeed!

"Train the dog you have in front of you...not the one you wished you had."

Hey Greta,

The dog my client euthanized on Saturday was entirely capable of mauling or killing someone.  He weighed 140 pounds and was escalating his threats. 

• So you’re saying the dogs protracted warning signs were increasing? That says to me that people are either not taking triggers into account or they are pushing durations and distance of stimulus that is making the dog react.  You tell me, I mean what was exactly triggering the dog to as you say “make threats’?

You simply aren't in a position to say with certainty that abuse, etc. is a necessary condition for a mauling to occur.  When you said abuse or neglect was necessary for a mauling to take place, you didn't make an exception for dogs who aren't somehow normal. You made a very absolute and very offensive statement.  Of course, it's a lot harder to pound the table in righteous rage if things aren't quite so black and white. 

• I actually am in a position to say with certainty that in the cases that have been researched it is always a form of negligence or abuse that leads to a mauling or killing. It’s just that the press, never, and I mean never get to the bottom of it. If someone has a dog with known aggressive behavior and they are negligent, and for whatever reason the dog does mauls or kill someone, then yes those people in its charge are negligent. Humans have the bigger brain, so I always level the responsibility on humans, dogs are innocent. Period.
• As for normal dogs, normal dogs do not maul or kill people; those dogs are an anomaly that results in roughly 20 deaths a year and 200 or fewer mauling someone severely. Do you mean normal as in a dog that has an illness? A dog that has an illness that mauls or kills someone is still innocent, and the people in it’s charge are responsible, so if they know the dog is so sick that it will maul someone, I’d question why the dog is being kept alive, after all there is a quality of life issue that is raised at that point.
• When a fatal attack or mauling occur the dog is euthanized and no one does a blood test to check the dogs health, and the dogs owners in these cases, at least to my knowledge have never stepped forward and declared that  the dog was sick. If you can find that I’d be happy to take a look at your findings.

When you make insistent statements like that, you are DAMAGING your argument, not helping it.  I'm trying to help you, dude.  Your rhetoric can be as intentional as you want and maybe it makes you feel better, but believe me, the only people you're convincing are people who already believe you. 

• Wow that’s a whole lotta supposition on your part. This blog is a call to arms for  the choir actually. It’s a space for people to have the info they may need to contact the press or the authorities and ask, in whatever way to simply get to the bottom of this incident. Hoboken is practically in my back yard, so this is close to home, it’s a small city and not everyone is able to gather info or feel compelled to make inquires. This makes it a little easier for them to do so.
• As for you trying to “help” me, well thanks but that is pretty presumptuous of you to assume I need your help, I mean who are you to tell me anything about how I should live my life, represent myself or how I will come off in the world?  Especially in the way of Pit bull Advocacy? That is pretty cocky. You have no idea who I am at all, or even introduced yourself in any way that resembles someone trying to genuinely help me with sincere guidance. And yes I do know the difference. You too might want to consider how you will look out here on the World Wide Web. But hey it’s all good, I’m not worried.

The louder you yell, the more people who disagree/are undecided will tune you out. 

• Again with the supposition. In this day and age no one is heard or noticed by treading lightly. You can’t even prove your statement about people ‘tuning me out” and you are missing the point of this blog/announcement/call to arms for the choir. People need easy access to info, so I put it together. The post I made was not an argument in the first place, you added that aspect. You certainly did not tune me out.

The more you use words incorrectly (and if Karen Delise does it, that doesn't make it right) the more people will write you off as ignorant.  You want to convince people?  Know the definitions of the words you are using.  Think about the implications of what you are saying it beyond your narrow little focus and see if it could be phrased better.  See if basic logic is happening in what you write.  Don't scream - it just annoys people.  So you're sick of the press - is this about your emotions and needing to vent?  Or do you really want to help the dogs?  

• I’m not worried about knowing the definitions of words, look at Webster’s and you’ll see my use of criteria/criterion is correct. Like I said I have many blogs on this site with various tones, and I stand by my writing. The focus of this blog was narrow, that was the point, it was focused on getting people to contact people and demand that the truth be found out as to why the incident happened, why is that so hard for you to deal with? It’s kinda funny how emotional you are about it all. I wished you had put that much energy into contacting the Mayor of Hoboken.

• I help 100’s of dogs a year, I own and run two dog training businesses that have three CTC certified trainers working cases and classes, 24/7 365. In fact maybe 1,000’s of dogs are getting helped by my/our work, a DVD I produced called the Pit Bull Hoax has made its way around the world. I give it away for free, check it out www.pitbullguru.com/hoax.html
• Yes I agree the post I made was emotional, so what’s so wrong with that? Other than you don’t like it, and some other guy on here… where’s this big harm? Name names lady, let me know who I am offending, who is “writing me off”, just curious…you are doing quite a bit of generalizing here. You are allowed to vent though. I mean your entire response to me is about how you “feel”, your er… ah emotions, ah…but when I do it, you don’t like it…oh ok I got ya. Well dear, that is your right, and well, if you actually knew anything about me you’d know I’m a passionate person. Go ask someone who knows me for real.  

If my nitpick makes your next blog entry more accurate and persuasive, then I will have helped you save more dogs.  Hope my devious plan works, or are you too self-righteous to learn something new?

• In the past 24 hours 25 new people have contacted me personally through phone and email and have been inspired to contact the various people I listed. The information I provided was what they needed to have some type of ammunition to make a call or write an email. Thousands of people have been sent the same info in this blog as well, so if that in any way helps the press get to the bottom it, great, that is my goal. As I keep saying I have many styles of blogs on DSD, so maybe you should go check em out?
• Wow, you’re really throwing down the life lessons aren’t ya. I learn something new every day thank you very much. I have certainty learned quite a bit about you. Remember just because you think I’m self righteous does not mean I am, you interpret how you will. Just be careful when you assume something about someone you’ve never had conscious contact with, IE: Stood next to and met. I suggest you visit my website www.pitbullguru.com. That will give you a little better insight, and who knows maybe we’ll cross paths one day in the real world? <g>

 I have some questions for you if you don’t mind?

1 - In the case you mentioned about the 140 lb dog, what was the cause for the aggression? Was it medical? Did you consult a board certified veterinary behaviorist to assist you with the case at any point? Or suggest that to the client? Blood work up etc…

2 – Did you research the Hoboken incident at all from the links I provided?

3 – This is the second time I’m asking this…Do you contact any press or authorities in OR when a dog attack occurs?

4 – Have you researched BSL, dog attacks, reporting on dog attacks or any research related to this issue?

5 – How many fear/aggression cases do you see in a year?

6 – Do you work with APBT’s/Staffies/Bully mixes, Mastiff , Cane Corso / Dogo type dogs/mixes?

 Just curious....

Be well and thanks for your input!

Drayton Michaels CTC www.pitbullguru.com www.urbandawgs.com

Greta - I am very sorry for your client... you said she was a #1 dog owner.... you are only a CDBC and a CPDT - you aren't a Veterinarian Behaviorist.... if she was having so much trouble with her dog - did you refer her to one? All this back n' forth gibberish is pretty silly. I am a dog owner - my dog is fearful - I have found the best trainers here and I have gone to the best Veteriarian Behaviorist too.... If you read all the books - ALL DOGS will show signs and it behooves everyone to know what they are and then prevent things from happening. And if they can't then a Vet. Behaviorist can help - unfortunately - sometimes they can't help either.... but saying some dogs are walking around ready to kill someone unprovoked is not a true statement.

I have read about this attack in Hoboken - I called the TV station last week and asked them to investigate further and to help the PitBall community out. Unfortunately for the Pitt Bull - some people who adopt them are the "bad" owners.  I would also really argue with a Trainer who tells me to do something without getting the advice of a Veterinarian Behaviorist.... they know more! Sorry.

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Greta Kaplan, CDBC, CPDT* Companion Animal Solutions* Portland, OR USA

I love the bullies; have seven of them myself, and work with hundreds of them each year - they make up the vast bulk of my clients.

What angers me the most is the comment made about this dog being 140 pounds, and about the dog not being "normal."

 First off, if it was 140 pounds, it was not a "pit bull" (assuming that the term refers to an APBT/Am Staff/Staffie.) Sure, the size of the dog will determine just how much damage can be done, but size is not an indicator of aggression.

Secondly, my American Bulldog is about 140 pounds. He is a well mannered, well behaved, loving, outgoing, and friendly companion. He is also hypothyroid, which would make him "not normal." Does that mean he's going to maul or kill someone? Well, he certainly has the ability to, just as my neighbor's 120 Labrador mix does, but that doesn't mean he's going to. Now, if enough triggers are prensent and his body language and warnings are ignored, then yes, he will bite. Just like the Rat Terrier or the Golden Retriever down the street.

I'd like to believe that anyone calling themself a dog trainer, behavior consultant, or behaviorist - and this includes veterinary behaviorists - has done enough research on aggressive behavior and dog bites/attacks to know that size and breed have nothing to do with whether or not a dog will aggress, but that the environment the dog lives in and the manner in which the dog was raised plays a major part in behavior.

Drayton -

Last week here in New Hampshire, a man took his five year old pit bull out into the woods and shot it in the head; when the dog did not die, he closed his eyes and shot the dog two more times in the back. The dog still did not die, so he tied it to a tree and left it there. The dog was found - still alive - the next day and had to be euthanized by animal control. The man only turned himself in after seeing his dog on the front page of a local newspaper.

The dog was diagnosed with separation anxiety only weeks before by a veterinarian, who prescribed Clomicalm. The vet never mentioned that the owner should contact a behaviorist, and when the Magic Pill didn't work quickly enough, the man just decided to kill his dog. Now, people in my city and surrounding towns are outraged that the man was allowed to own a "weapon dog" and are trying to get legislators to ban "pit bulls" even though they know nothing about bully breeds or this dog's background.

I would love to get multiple copies of your DVD, and possibly some help with educating these folks if you're willing!

Greta,

Dogs that maul people are not “normal”, they have some sort of issue, be it medical or a history of abuse/neglect of some kind or both. Abuse/Neglect comes in many forms, crappy breeding, severe lack of socialization, fear and pain training methods, malnutrition…The anomalies happen on average 20 times a year and result in death, and fewer than 200 of these incidents result in severe injuries. The rest of the dog bites are on par with playground or kitchen accidents.

Dogs view the word as safe or unsafe, they are not making decisions out of some vast moral construct; that is what the public, the media and the authorities need to realize.  The media is irresponsible in its reporting of dog incidents and the dog’s reputation suffers every time they do not report the truth, which is usually the case. Pit bull dogs get the most undeserved reputation because of the media. This has had a ripple effect and made its way in the fear of many other breeds, however the PB’s have it the worst. That is offensive to me.

This blog is about getting to the bottom of why the dog incident in Hoboken NJ happened.
It happened like all of the other mauling incidents or deaths from dogs; it was due to the abuse, negligence and irresponsibility of humans. This is fact; there are people who can prove it. Hopefully they will stand up and speak to the media and the authorities and demand the truth be told. I can only do what I can do.

It sounds like you and your clients we’re doing all you could, I applaud you. I’m sorry the dog had to be put down, but that is sometimes the case, as we know. No I am not one of those people that believe all dogs can be saved. There are worse things than death for dogs however, such as living in stress and fear with no hope or help for it. With the fuzzy triggers and the fact that kids were in the home coupled the level of stress and fear the humans and the dog had, they did the right thing sad as it was.

You made your blog reply about you, your client, how you feel, my writing style…way off the point.

You brought it up so if you do not like the way it went down on this blog, that’s your issue.  This reminds of when people go to seminars and it’s all about them and their dog, as opposed to keeping the topic focused on the specifics. This topic is about getting to the media and the authorities and demanding, not asking… that the truth be told about why the dogs were in such a state in Hoboken as to maul people.

The point of this blog was to help people with information so they can contact the media and the authorities in an effort to tell the truth about the incident. Period.

You made a whole slew of crazy assumptions about my intentions, my sincerity, that I was screaming at people, and so forth, fine, go for it. How’s that working out for you?

Thanks for answering my questions, I appreciate it. I also appreciate you do what you can to combat BSL, thanks.

Next time ask me some questions instead of acting like you’re my teacher, you’re not. If you want to teach me something then I suggest you start by contacting me off the blog to address the topic of “seemingly unknown causes for aggression”, then we can dialog for real.

I’m willing to learn and I’m open to other lines of thinking, what I am not interested in are people looking to divert the attention of the topic with their emotional insecurities. You decided to feel what you felt, you decided to draw a comparison to your client’s dog, and these were all your decisions. Ask yourself why you are offended in the first place. Is it because you do not agree with my assertion that dogs do not attack humans w/out some type of history of abuse/neglect and in many cases cruelty, these are all the result of humans making decisions. That is not my opinion; it is fact that can be verified. The problem is so few people ever find out the facts.

I suggest you read the book The Pit Bull Placebo for detailed information on 150 years of reporting on dog attacks. You’ll see there are patterns and a number of criteria for these incidents.

Like I said, I’m not upset with you, do what you feel, but don’t get mad at me for the way you chose to act and feel.

Lastly, I was contacted personally by Dr. Dunbar and he thanked me for sending this info out and helping dogs.

Onward and upward and all the best to you.

Drayton Michaels CTC www.pitbullguru.com www.urbandawgs.com

AMBull Mom

So sorry to hear about this...contact me through my website www.pitbullguru.com and I'll send you all the DVD's you need. I can also come and speak to your town if that is a possibility, just let me know what you need.

Drayton

Drayton Michaels CTC www.pitbullguru.com www.urbandawgs.com

My client's dog, who was euthanized, was not a bully breed of any stripe whatsoever.  Totally unrelated breed.  I don't know where you got that conclusion, but you're off base -- though your leaping to the conclusion that he was a bully breed (or that I thought a 140 lb dog could be a pit bull or Amstaff) and that I'm too much of an idiot to know the difference certainly reveals a lot about your biases -- you totally MADE UP your assumption.  Second, he was not behaving normally.  I did not advise the client to euthanize; she was frightened of the dog and made the decision independently. Do you people actually think you can KNOW FOR A FACT that this dog was either normal, or had been abused, even though you never met the dog or his owners?  I was there.  You were not.   I consulted numerous other medical and ethological experts on the case. They also know far more about it than any of you.

I decline to participate further in this discussion. 

Greta Kaplan, CDBC, CPDT* Companion Animal Solutions* Portland, OR USA

You just made my point for me.  You wrote:  "

"Greta,

"Dogs that maul people are not “normal”, they have some sort of issue, be it medical or a history of abuse/neglect of some kind or both. Abuse/Neglect comes in many forms, crappy breeding, severe lack of socialization, fear and pain training methods, malnutrition…"

I never said mauling or killing is normal.  And you originally did not qualify your statement with the word "normal."  You said NO dog would maul or kill a human absent provocation, abuse or neglect. 

You did not say "no normal dog." You said NO dog.  You can't pretend you didn't write that. 

And, you've now expanded your list of possible causes for abnormality way past "provocation, abuse or neglect" to "some issue." Of course they have some issue. 

Not only do you not actually know what I wrote, but now you don't even know what YOU wrote. 

And YOU are a self-appointed guru?  Scary indeed. 

This is not about me.  It was always about one single incorrect statement you made.  Which you have now functionally retracted, admitting that I was correct.  Thanks. 

Greta Kaplan, CDBC, CPDT* Companion Animal Solutions* Portland, OR USA

Drayton,  

You spend most of your time arguing with people. Not a positive way to educate.

Classes should include puppies of all sizes and all play-styles. Small dogs need to develop confidence and learn how to act around larger and more active dogs, and larger, more active dogs must learn to be gentle around smaller and less active dogs. Sessions with only large and active dogs produce over-the-top play styles and dogs that are likely to annoy or bully other dogs in the real world. Sessions limited to small dogs only are a potential disaster. Certainly, small puppies may quickly gain confidence around other small dogs, but some small dogs quickly become too big for their boots and none of them are given the opportunity to develop confidence around larger dogs. In the real world, small bossy dogs may get into trouble and small fearful dogs are attack-bait for marginally socialized dogs.  Read the rest of the articles. They might help you:)