Punishment – A bad word?

Thanks for the simple post describing the four quadrants of punishment and reinforcement. That was really helpful. I often get a bit confused when I talk to people and tell them I use only positive training and then I feel like I've got a dirty little secret that I use timeouts and the like.

But now I've got a better way of thinking about it: Positive Training = Positive Reinforcement + Negative Punishment.

But the word punishment is a problem that's not going to be solved. The word is way too associated with being mean and getting revenge.

It's like if you're happy and you say, "I'm feeling gay today." It doesn't matter that you know the word technically also means "happy", it has come to have a primary meaning in our culture that has far overshadowed any other meanings making them irrelevant in all but an academic or comedic situations.

The word "punishment" needs to go. 

I like "rewarding" (+R) and "delayed rewarding" (-P) or something like that.

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doxienews.com

Ethics is a kind of a tricky term, because what's NOT ethical to me, in terms of dog training, might seem entirely ethical to someone else. For example, I'd never leave a dog on a tie out every day, but lots of people think that's an ethical thing to do. My clients don't hire me to tell them what's ethical or not ethical, they want to know what works and why. I am not going to get anywhere if I try to tell a pet owner that something they are doing is unethical, and sure I can advertise that I am ethical, but who is going to be advertising that they aren't ethical?! I'd much rather say that I am doing what has been scientifically demonstrated to work, that I am applying the principles of behavior science. And what the science demonstrates is that a problem with punishment is that dogs adapt to it, they get used to it the same way we get used to traffic or aging or just the demands of going to work everyday, and so for many dogs a bit of punishment becomes just part of the cost of doing business, so they keep on dragging their handler down the road in spite of the fact that they are being choked nearly to death as they do so.

I do think it's valuable for people to be able to analyze behavior. I tend to work with clients who have BIG behavior problems, and so one place I can start is to understand what is reinforcing the undesirable behaviors? What is punishing the desired behaviors? A leash pop  in my analysis could be both applied positive punishment, and negative reinforcement, but if it's not working then really it might be something else entirely that is having the bigger influence on the behavior (the handler moving his/her feet). For many dogs, leash popping is just a neutral stimulation, not negative not positive, just pretty much ignored.  No icecream TILL you're good is negative punishment PLUS positive reinforcement.  

Knowing the behavior science has certainly helped me analyze and resolve severe problem behaviors, so I really like to share the science of consequences with my clients, and help them to understand the terms, and how to apply the science to get most effective results. Some people might think teaching a dog to do anything is unethical, but my job isn't to decide who is or is not living an ethical life. It's to help my clients understand behavior, and how their behavior influences the behavior of their dogs. 

 Jenny Ruth Yasi Whole Dog Camp www.wholedogcamp.com

So true!  Punishment is part of life, whether it's witholding that treat until you get that sit or getting a parking ticket because you thought you wouldn't get caught.  Actually, maybe 'karma' is a better word!!

~Jaq~ www.dogpsyche.co.uk

To paraphrase Milton Berle, I know a nice topic when I steal one. Thanks for starting this conversation!

Quick answer: No, it's not a bad word.

Slightly longer answer:

No, punishment is neither a bad word nor a bad concept. Things happen that reduce the frequency of behavior all the time. Some of them are, as Dr. Dunbar puts it, scary, and some of them are not. Trying to pretend that they don't exist or that when they do they are always bad is foolish.

But what I really cannot abide is avoiding the use of a word because some people misuse it or use it in a way we don't like. After all, some people refer to Jay Leno as "funny," but that doesn't stop me from using it to describe actual comedians.

Avoiding the word punishment in order to prevent people misusing punishment doesn't solve anything.

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Eric Goebelbecker eric@dogspelledforward.com

Eric, I have to blatantly disagree with you. I was just at lunch with a friend and I was talking about this post and trying to define for him positive and negative reinforcement and punishment.

It was extremely difficult because the term negative punishement sounds like almost the exact opposite of what it is. My friend was, "Hold it, negative punishment is one of the good ones?" to which I replied, "Yeah, isn't that ridiculous?"

Because it is ridiculous. Words are supposed to communicate ideas, and these words don't. 

Why would you put your customers at such a disadvantage by using such misleading and confusing terms? Don't you have bigger fish to fry?

So in this sense, punishment is clearly a bad word, literally, because it doesn't do what words are supposed to do: communicate. 

Of course, the word punishment in the non-professional-dog-trainer sense is clearly also a bad word, figuratively, because positive punishment is generally a bad concept for average people to adopt with their dogs.

I'm not sure how you could see the word punishment as being in any way good in this context.

You're right in one sense. It's not bad to say "There are better ways than punishment to train your dog." Clearly it's not like a curse word or Voldemort or something, but I don't think anyone's seriously arguing that point.

__________

doxienews.com

People use punishment a LOT. Lay people, professionals, people punish on purpose, they punish by accident. I think ESPECIALLY because the terms and the ideas seem to confuse people that's even more reason to talk about punishment!

Ignorance is the poison. Dog trainers are maybe the best people in the world right now to be talking about punishment, and how it influences behavior. Someone needs to talk about it.

Jenny Ruth Yasi Whole Dog Camp www.wholedogcamp.com

This is from Dr. Dunbar's post called Non Aversive Punishment.   ..."Even though efficient and effective feed-back is binary and comprises rewards and punishments, few trainers punish. Some trainers do not want to punish at all because they think that punishments are unpleasant and inhumane and other trainers use aversive stimuli intended as punishment but all too often, ineffective

@kody -

This is going to end up a blog post here, hopefully tomorrow. (Needed a topic anyway, I was planning on copping out with that cool dolphin video.)

I'll hit a couple of main points fast though -

I don't usually go into the 4 quadrants at all unless I have a client that seems to be into that stuff. (My site is slowly turning into one that attracts "techie" clients though.) So the chance of me using the term "negative punishment" is pretty slim.

That said, I don't tend to mince words. Turning/looking/walking away from a dog that jumps up is punishment. Moving a hand with a ball in it away from a jumping dog is punishment. I don't find that difficult to grasp, and when I put it in those terms clients tend to get it too. Often I see a light bulb go off - it doesn't have to be painful or scary!

Why is it that people find the fact that OC uses "punishment" to describe a consequence so troubling? (Come to think of it, why is "punishment" confusing when "consequence" isn't? But I digress....) Being sent to your room? No TV for a week? Grounded? Sent to bed early without seeing Flip Wilson? (Never forgot that.) All punishments.

I have a real problem with some of the political correctness in the training community. The words "punishment" and "leadership" have become overloaded with innuendo because someone decided that they were — I don't know — too loaded with innuendo or something. Avoiding these words does two things: wastes two perfectly good words (if I may channel George Carlin for a moment) and assumes that our clients aren't clever enough to grasp the difference between between a time-out and a leash pop. I think they can.

More in the blog.

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Eric Goebelbecker
eric@dogspelledforward.com

I want to get away from the punishment is a bad word thing, because that's not the point.

And while you haven't admitted that the term "negative punishment" is horribly confusing to people, I think you probably agree that it's true.

What I see is a world full of people who have no idea how take care of their dogs. I also see a world full of lazy people. Maybe you don't see this because you see a lot of people who are trying through your business, I'm not sure. But if you just search google for dog discussion boards you'll see almost nothing but bad advice. And people are literally asking "What punishment do I give my dog to get him to stop barking?" If you post positive training techniques you will be dismissed entirely, they want permission to hurt their dog and get the satisfaction of "punishment."

Obviously there's nothing wrong with using the term punishment in a discussion like this. But from what I'm seeing, average dog owners need to be given hope. The last concept they need to think about is punishment, they've already too much of that.

They need to hear this repeatedly: "It's possible to live a great life with your dog with absolutely zero punishment." And they need to be convinced that it's true, because from their perspective of what punishment is, it is true.

Yes, the wind blows to the left and a pine needle pokes your dog. You need to leave after playing a fun game. You are frustrated and give your dog a dirty stare.

Punishment exists. But the vast majority of dog owner's need to hear that it doesn't have to. The dogs need it too. 

When you go to a funeral, you don't say, "Yeah, he was a crazy racist and the world will be better off." It may be true, it's just not the time.

You don't say to a kid, "Get ready because when you get older you'll find out people are greedy and mean and you'll most likely get divorced." It's just not the time.

Now is not the time to talk about the intricacies of punishment with the average dog owner. Now is the time to inspire them, because the truth, and I'm pretty sure you agree with this, is that when you do it right any "punishment" your dog ends up getting though positive training is really quite minor and certainly doesn't fit into the definition of capital P Punishment.

__________
doxienews.com

"I want to get away from the punishment is a bad word thing, because that's not the point."

Except for the part where you want me to agree that I shouldn't use it....

"And while you haven't admitted that the term "negative punishment" is horribly confusing to people, I think you probably agree that it's true."

Horribly? Kind of a strong word. It can be confusing. It's not something that most people need to know.

"What I see is a world full of people who have no idea how take care of their dogs. I also see a world full of lazy people. Maybe you don't see this because you see a lot of people who are trying through your business, I'm not sure. But if you just search google for dog discussion boards you'll see almost nothing but bad advice. And people are literally asking "What punishment do I give my dog to get him to stop barking?" If you post positive training techniques you will be dismissed entirely, they want permission to hurt their dog and get the satisfaction of "punishment." "

I think you're seeing a lot of self-selection there. I've seen some discussion boards that are really, really good. At the same time:
Q: Where do many of the clueless that need help meet many of the clueless that probably shouldn't help?
A: The Internet.
To which my only real defense is this.

I get calls from people all over the map. Lately I've had a run of some really great clients and that very well may be coloring my viewpoint right now. But really all I can do is shape my overall message to fit my outlook and then adjust as much as I am able and willing to for each customer.

"Obviously there's nothing wrong with using the term punishment in a discussion like this. But from what I'm seeing, average dog owners need to be given hope. The last concept they need to think about is punishment, they've already too much of that.

They need to hear this repeatedly: "It's possible to live a great life with your dog with absolutely zero punishment." And they need to be convinced that it's true, because from their perspective of what punishment is, it is true"

I couldn't disagree much more. This assumes the average dog owner is not as intelligent as the average "positive" dog trainer.

You are saying that there is no way that they could possibly grasp the concept of negative punishment — not just that the term is confusing but they can't comprehend it so don't even allude to it. That's kinda arrogant.

Rather than give them some credit and say that they can grasp that they can have harmony with their dog without pain, shouting etc. It's best to redefine the word punishment to more narrow terms and then throw it away?

At the same time, if gives power to the "other" trainers, because they can see through this ruse and can write stuff about "positive-only" trainers who believe that, well, you can train a dog without using any punishment. They're playing a word game...but who started it?

There's a pendulum in motion that got started before I even started training. A lot of speakers that I have a lot of respect for have spoken about it. It moved from Koehler and even more harsh methods all the way to "don't turn away from a jumping dog because he might find it aversive." I think it's on the way back now. Cesar and his ilk have sure helped, but so have some trainers that frankly, can't cut the mustard because their toolboxes are incomplete. I think that the only way we can keep it from swinging back too far is to be honest with ourselves, our clients, and each other.

This has been bubbling around in the back of my head for a while, so you're taking the brunt of a reaction that you didn't really ask for. Like I said, I'm going to be blogging about this.

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Eric Goebelbecker
eric@dogspelledforward.com

Hi Kody,

I must be on different discussion boards, which must be discouraging! How do you talk to people who are addicted to punishment or shock collars etc? Yeah, that is a slightly different topic. I think, just as with antibiotics, it helps people to understand the risk of undesirable side effects. 

But everywhere I go online, posts emphasize reinforcement, and criminalize "punishment" in general, as though punishment is always a terrible painful thing. I am going to post a video of me applying punishment to Joey this morning, and it's not really terrible at all. I just close the door when he sits up and I open it when he lays down. Closing the door is (both positively and negatively) punishing his behavior of trying to bash and bark his way out of confinement, and opening the door is (both positively and negatively) rewarding him for laying down and waiting for the release cue. 

The easy way to explain the technical terms is to remember that punishment is always punishment (diminishing behavior), and reinforcement is always reinforcement (increasing behavior).  Negative just means something was removed to get the effect, and positive means something was added to get the effect. I do get very smart clients and very smart dogs, so maybe I am lucky that way, but it's not that difficult or confusing to understand. It really is important that trainers understand so we can share our understanding with our clients, but too often, trainers are a bit confused, and then we just add confusion to our clients!

Jenny Ruth Yasi Whole Dog Camp www.wholedogcamp.com

I am fairly certain that a conversation between two doctors about a medical condition would sound different than a conversation about the same medical condition between a doctor and patient.  Here's my take on the whole thing...

A.  Professional dog trainers must understand the terminology of their trade and absolutely should use the terminology when speaking to other professionals.  This keeps us all on the same page and actually prevents the misuse of words.  There is no debate as to what punishment is withing the framework of learning theory.  None.  It is defined.

B.  Clients have absolutely no use for this terminology.  Clients need to know how to fix their problem.  (notice the period at the end of that sentence)

C.  I think it would benefit R+ trainers immensely if we gave more people "permission" to punish.  When someone is asking which punishment to use to stop a dog from jumping up, that's a fantastic opportunity!  If a client is offered humane, dog friendly ways to punish their dog, they are more apt to stick with the training.  Clients, in my opinion, are desperately seeking the right way to deal with the dog when, in their eyes, a punishment is necessary.  Why would we deny them that?

D.  If we deny punishment, hide from it, avoid it or claim that it just isn't necessary, clients become even more frustrated and are more easily led over to the darkside with it's shiny choke chains and magical shock collars.

That's my two cents.

~Cindy

Really good point actually. I think, as you say, it comes down to the difference between the way a trainer uses the words and what the general public thinks a word means. It's political correctness at the end of the day. Punishment will always have its place in dog training, but the general public doesn't really have a concept of the difference between positive and negative punishment.

Jack Russell Training Info www.jack-russell-lover.com

The REAL confusion isn't the word "punishment," it's in the words positive and negative. The problem is that trainers are very often using the word "positive" as though it means "good!" (IE "positive training.") It's a play on the word "positive!" that becomes a misuse if used that way in behavior science.

Because in behavior science "positive" doesn't mean "good" and "negative" doesn't mean bad. Positive means something added (add treat, add shock, add pop on the collar, add anything) and negative means take something away (take away treats, take away freedom, take away shock, take away pop on the collar.

Positive and negative punishment are BOTH punishment, just formed in different ways.

So that is a great reason to just refer to something as either punishment or reinforcement. Very often, in a good training plan,  the sum total "consequence" can be analyzed as being a combination of both kinds of reinforcement on the desired behavior, and both kinds of punishment on the undesirable behavior. So you evade when the dog jumps up (removing access to you =NP, or that could be PP, if you clipped him on a tether for jumping up) and pet the dog (PR) and remove the leash clip (NR) when he has four on the floor.

Jenny Ruth Yasi Whole Dog Camp www.wholedogcamp.com

Thank you all for the responses.  I didn't expect to cause such a stir! I am glad I got people talking :)

I do think we need to give credit to non-dog-training-people in their ability to grasp training concepts. I do sometimes explain negative punishment using examples like I gave in my original post.  It depends on the given circumstance, I also explain about training alternative behaviours to replace undesirable ones, such a "sit" instead of "jumping up" for example in order to reduce the need for time outs and the like. 

I don't really shy away from using the term punishment myself during the course of a training session, although I will often use terms like "To reduce this behaviour we will..." which I suppose is a play on words really. 

When I said I would never say to a client we use negative punishment, I meant over the phone before they book with us! :) 

In our training we give people a broad understanding of the how/why in dog training.  I think this is important so that no matter what a person wants to teach their dog they could apply the principles of learning.  By giving people an understanding of learning without using technical jargon you are giving them a gift that will last a lifetime.

I don't believe that punishment should be a bad word and people should not be afraid to use it in the correct context. 

I'm sure this discussion will continue :)  

Lisa Whelan BSc CPDT HNC APDT(853)(UK) CAP2

While some clients will be interested in the quadrants of learning theory, the vast majority will not.

They don't want to be dog trainers.

They just want their dogs to behave.

We dog trainers may get wrapped up in the cloak of dog training language and concepts, but I rarely find it necessary to get into those things with clients.

I agree wholeheartedly that punishment happens quite a lot, even when "positive" trainers are training. To pretent that one never uses it is to truly not understand the science. Restraining a dog with a leash on a buckle collar is punishment.

The terms "positive" and "negative" are also part of the problem. Technically, someone using lots of positive punishment could call themselves a "positive" trainer. This is not fixed by the rest of us calling ourselves "positive reinforcement" trainers, because no one is using only R+. (Plus, "positive reinforcement trainer" is an unwieldy moniker.)

I can also call myself a "positive" trainer if I am "positive" I can help you and your dog, and/or I am a happy, optimistic person in general. Positive is as positive does. Oddly, I know quite a few trainers who claim to be "positive" in methods, and yet are rude and nasty to people. Sorry, but this does not compute.

My goal is to use the best tools and methods for each owner and dog, period. I use mostly R+, but I also use R- and P+ when needed.

Getting bound up in semantics does not help dogs or owners. And, the "us vs. them" mentality amongst dog trainers is super-tiring.

Can we just illustrate this by simply saying it is the "withholding a reward?"