Dog Parks and Why You Should Avoid Them

Answer True or False as the statement applies to you:

1)      – You are unable to understand (read) your dog’s body language.

2)       - You are unable to read any dog’s body language.

3)       - You expect your dog to behave the same way that he does at home.

4)       - You are very sociable and easily distracted by conversations with other dog owners.

5)       - Your dog does not ‘recall’ reliably. (Call 1-800-Who me? for clarification)

6)       - Your dog is terrified of other dogs.

7)       - Your dog has a history of aggression toward humans.

8)       - Your dog has a history of serious, damaging aggression toward other dogs.

9)       - Your dog is not current on his vaccinations.

10)    - You watch ‘The Dog Whisperer’ and are expecting the ‘pack’ to fix your dog.

Be honest, now :)  If you answered 'True' to any of these statements, you might want to avoid Dog Parks.

Chuck

"Train the dog you have in front of you...not the one you wished you had."

Unfortunately it's so difficult to talk the everyday average pet parent out of going to dog parks.  People are just so uninformed and in general, people just tend to take everything regarding dog behavior lightly.  For many, unfortunately it takes something horrible happening for them to take it seriously. 

I tell my students and clients that taking their dog to a dog park is like playing a game of Russian Roulette.  Based on the dynamics of the dogs and owners in attendance on any particular day, one trip could be a wonderful, happy, positive and fulfilling experience and the next an absolute nightmare.  So, here's the image I plant in their heads.  "Just before you walk through that gate, stop, load a bullet in your gun, spin the barrel.  Now walk in."  There's usually silence in the room after I say this.  

Director of Training and Behavior Counseling Pup 'N Iron Host of Dog Sports and Performance Network on Pet Life Radio

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

"does your dog really need to play with other dogs to have a completely fulfilled life?"

No. They live in a human world, with humans. Dogs need to play with humans to have a fulfilled life. We don't have dog parks so far in the UK, but we're going that way and it will be a very sad day.

Why get a dog if you just want other dogs to babysit it all the time?

I live in an urban apartment, no yard, and the dog park is about the only legal place I can let my dog off-leash.

That being said, my dog has excelent recall, I go at times that I usually know the other dogs and other owners, and I don't hesitate to leave if I don't like the "vibe" going on at the moment.

As for doggy day-camp, I know of two in my country, and I won't trust my dog with either of them.

One of them simply "dumpes" the dogs in one of the dog parks which I don't like, and I know they don't supervise as much as I know (also, my dog only responds to commands coming from me. He will ignore other people trying to give him a recall or a "wait" cue).

The other is ran by a harsh "yank 'n crank" dog trainer who's partner in life was recently sent to jail for sexaul abuse of underage girls.

Given those options, I prefer the dog park when I am there to supervise.

Problem is, even you answer false to all of them....can the other people?

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Eric Goebelbecker eric@dogspelledforward.com

I completely disagree. We live in Brooklyn, NY and we have taken our Golden Retriever, Rosie, to Prospect Park since we found her on Petfinder. When we got her she was six months old and just figuring out where she stood in dog world. The off leash times - up until 9 am each day in the Long Meadow - have been essential to her becoming a well adjusted and socialized dog. I believe the most un-neurotic dogs live in New York City because, for the most part, they are around other dogs a lot. The dogs I have a problem with are the ones that don't get regular contact with other dogs. In my experience, they are either very agressive or terrified of other dogs. The hundreds and hundreds of dogs that gather in Prospect Park each are a sight to behold. Of course, there are are doggie disputes and owners who don't know how to control their dogs. But compared to the number of dogs frolicking in the park every day, these incidents are few and far between. I like Chuck's advice, but I don't agree with not allowing dogs to be amongst their own species. It can only be healthy to do that.

Well done Eric.  Another good discussion on the problems caused by uneducated owners (because that really is the cause of 99% of these problems).  I'm so glad we don't have designated dog parks over here in the UK, although that's not to say we don't see many of the same problems!

~Jaq~ www.dogpsyche.co.uk

Is it a coincidence that two out of the three recomendations Eric makes involve taking your dog to a training facility and paying a professional trainer?

I quote: "I'm not a fan of dog parks. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a trainer that is." We all know Eric is a trainer and he makes his living with dogs.

Hey, I'm a remodeling contractor; how believable would I be if I bad mouth do-it-yourselfers and insist on only professionals doing the work. Wait, that's what unions do and we know how self-serving they can be.

Eric's comments may be valid, but I (and perhaps others) was struck be the obvious conflict of interest in his recommendations. Perhaps we should be dicussing ways to make dog parks better and safer instead of merely bad-mouthing them.

Perhaps it's just me, but I am struck by the similarity to breed ban proposals. If no one owns a pit bull (substitute goes to the dog park), the problem disappears. Or does it?

I'm not as down on dog parks as a lot of trainers are.  They're a risky evnironment, but they can also be a wonderful venue for socialization.  Like any risky activity, you need to know what you're doing if you visit one.  Chuck's advice in the comment above is great.  If you have a dog who's ready for the park, can see trouble brewing, have an excellent recall to get your dog out of it, and leave when things get dangerous, then your risk is pretty low.  The APDT website has several articles and a bunch of links that provide a good starting point for educating oneself on dog parks.  http://www.apdt.com/petowners/park/default.aspx

Play with other dogs might not be necessary for a good quality of life, but there's also nothing like it.  Meeting new dogs and successfully navigating the social challenges of doing it is great for dogs.  I take Chaos to a local dog park occasionally.  It's far from perfect.  I always walk around outside to observe the behavior of the dogs already there.  If I see a lot troublesome behavior (multiple really aroused dogs, lots of piloerection, bullies shadowing other dogs, or anything that concerns me), I don't go in.  If something I don't like is going on once I'm there, I leave.  

There's a lot not to like about dog parks, but there's also a lot to like.  I think that trainers - myself included - see so much of the dark side of canine behavior that we tend to overestimate risk.  Unfortunately, most owners taking their dogs to dog parks know nothing about appropriate social behavior (or worse, and I confidently filled with misinformation).  That puts a heavier burden on owners committed to the safety and enjoyment of everyone in the park, but it can be done with a little education.   

Actually, dogs do need to play with other dogs to live a fulfilled life.  Why?  Because they are dogs and they enjoy each other's companionship.  A dog run is a great outlet for their energy, a great place for play, and for socialization.  Is it always positive, of course not.  Neither is a playground for children.  Children get in fights and pick up viruses from playing amongst each other all the time.  In the 16 years that I have been acquainted with dog parks, there have been numerous outbreaks of kennel cough, several dog fights (mostly inhibited), fewer dog bites, and some great playtime for dogs.  To negate dog parks as a positive outlet seems too broad of a stroke.  Of course there are irresponsible owners/untrained dogs at the park, and one must be careful of them.  There are also a lot of nice, thoughtful owners there as well, and they typically outnumber the one or two untrained owners.  Dog parks are not for all dogs, especially mature dogs, but for young dogs with boundless energy and few outlets for their energy, they can be wonderful.  I encourage many of my clients to take their friendly dogs to their local dog park, with several caveats and training information.  I discourage many of my clients from going to the dog park if it is not suitable for their dog.  It depends.  

I've used dog parks when I lived in a city and had no yard. It was a great place to exercise my dog. I've also used them when traveling with my dogs and staying in hotels. And for many people living in cities with dogs, dog parks are the only place to let their dogs run off leash. It sounds great to say "find a friend with a yard," but for folks in cities, such friends may be impossible to find. A training class might be a good option, but once/week is not enough exercise for a dog and most people cannot afford daily lessons with a trainer. 

I think you have to know your dog and assess your dog park. Some dogs should not be in dog parks ever (and many of these dogs should also never go to a dog day camp or doggie daycare). But others can do fine. Mine did. But, I wasn't there to socialize with people and my dogs weren't there to socialize with other dogs. We used the parks as a safe place to run off leash for physical exercise they couldn't get in our home. They'd sniff for greetings, learned to play with me around other dogs, but we generally keep to ourselves at dog parks. 

Seems like a more productive approach would be to give people advice on how to use dog parks safely if they're going to do so. Chuck's list is a good starting point. Instead of a list of reasons not to go to dog parks, educate clients/general public on what to do if they are going to. Because they are going to. Scaring them silly can be counterproductive if they end up having an enjoyable day at the park, because they're less likely to listen to any other advice you may have. 

As an aside, the concern about unvaccinated dogs at dogs parks doesn't really make sense. If your dog is vaccinated, being around unvaccinated dogs does not really pose a risk to him. That's the whole point of vaccinating your own dog. Granted, nothing is 100% and a vaccine might fail, but a dog could encounter an unvaccinated dog or contaminated ground anywhere. The risk is to the unvaccinated dog. 

Conflict of interest?

What would be better for my bottom line, running a day care/organized play sessions or charging for consults for dog-dog aggression? Think about it.

While you're thinking,  look at this site and at my own( http://www.dogspelledforward.com ), they are both packed with DIY dog training info. You are way out of line.

It just so happens that I believe that part of good DIY advice is stay out of dog parks.

Item #1 is my list may be a way to make dog parks better, however....

(Actually I only make part of my living with dogs. Hopefully it will be 100% of it soon.)

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Eric Goebelbecker eric@dogspelledforward.com

Just curious- is it legal to let your dog offleash in a "regular" park in the UK?

Or do people who wish to walk the dog offleash on occasion and let it run must drive outside the city limits?

What's NOT safe about dog parks can be easily eliminated if all of us who love dog parks take responsibility and help get rid of the problems rather than running away from them.   Take responsibility for your own dog first, then step up and try to teach others, use the proper authorities to have offenders removed, and finally get involved in your local park's planning, rules establishment, and enforcement.

We love taking out dog to our park district fully fenced dog park (and our dog benefits greatly from it) and there are pros and cons to everything so I think it's about getting the owners educated, and then being smart while you are there. 

Let's HELP educate people about the proper and safe use of dog parks because that will make it good for everyone!

Learn the rules of the park, use common sense, talk to other owners about their dogs behavior (instead of just standing around socializing), leave if you uncomfortable, and CALL THE POLICE if someone has a dangerous dog (does anyone not have a cell phone with them at all times nowadays?).

Oh, and the picture used in this blog???? 

Granted it is only a snapshot, and hard to tell, but those dogs look like they are playing to me, not fighting.

Once a dog has been sufficiently socialized with other dogs and is neither fearful or aggressive with their own species, interactions with humans, and the humans he/she lives with is the highest priority and should take precedence over finding other dogs for him/her to play with.  Ultimately,  I think play and quality interactions with their own human(s) is what most dogs are missing.  Some people take their dog to the dog park so they don't have to play with their dog.  The other dogs in the park do their work for them.  Look at how many people get a second dog for this very reason.

Director of Training and Behavior Counseling Pup 'N Iron Host of Dog Sports and Performance Network on Pet Life Radio

Thanks for the insight Jeff. 

I do tend to waver back and forth over this. I often do hear and see people that know what they are doing and manage to have very safe and rewarding visits, but then I'll hear or see the type of story I talked about in my post and swing right back.

There's a definite risk assessment to be made when it comes to these parks. The fact that trainers tend to look at the "dark side" is a great point too - having seen the results of bad encounters certainly does have an impact on how we see things. 

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Eric Goebelbecker eric@dogspelledforward.com

The "alt text" for the photo is "Two dogs playing rough." Depending on your browser, you'll see that if you "mouse over" the image.

I don't know where you would get the idea that I was trying to represent it as something else. I thought it was kind of obvious.

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Eric Goebelbecker eric@dogspelledforward.com

Dogs need their humans and their doggy pals.  Of course their interactions with their owners take precedent over doggy play.  We were talking about a fulfilled life.  I agree, so many owners work too many hours and interact with their dogs way too little.  It is one of the most frustrating aspects of being a trainer/behavioral counselor.....owner compliance.  With that being said, dog play is necessary too.  An adolescent dog that has been left most of the day alone, except for a mid day walk, that gets to go play at the dog park and spend the rest of the evening with their owners is a much happier and compliant dog. A happier and compliant dog is a happier and compliant owner/client.

I think that dog parks are great if your dog(s) can handle it - and also if you are a responsible dog owner who uses dog parks in the way they're meant to be used - as just part of the full flavour of a well lived life.  Where I live there's different kinds of dog parks - there's the sniff and pass off leash parks, the big field where the dogs wrestle and go crazy kind of off leash parks, there's on leash where you go and and just go for a walk with your dog along the water - all different kinds of experiences.

At the big field - dogs go crazy wrestling types of off leash dog parks - I'd say those are the most contentious kinds of experiences for the dogs where they can get in the most trouble - and it's been my own personal experience that the responsible dog owners find a group of like minded dog owners who go there at the same time every day - we know when other people who have dogs who have the same temperament and play style as our dog(s) are going to be there - and we go there at the same time as them so we can pretty much guarantee what kind of play time our dogs are going to have - we know the health status of the dogs who are going to be there - and when an "outsider" dog shows up and starts acting up - we have the power of the group of humans to monitor and mentor the new person to the group.

And I'm sure it's like that at dog parks all over North America.  So I don't think that dog parks should be written off completely - they are a great resource for the dogs who can handle them - and the dog owners who are willing to use them - but it's completely at the discretion and user beware of the dog owners.  Dog owners have become WAY TOO uppity about dog dog interactions and misinterpreting play as aggression - especially at dog parks - and it is such a shame. 

I agree that dogs do not need to be around other dogs to have a fabulous life - I personally have a dog who doesn't get to be around other non-family dogs - and she's got a great life - but dogs DO need to run offleash somewhere in order to be truly happy and fulfilled.  Even if it's at midnight or 5:30 in the morning.

Yes, for puppies and younger adolescent dogs that are still in their critical socialization stage and learning about appropriate interactions with their own species, sure, dog to dog play is extremely important.  However I completely disagree that dog to dog play is a necessary component of a fulfilled life for an adult dog.  Not only do they not necessarily need it, but many don't even want it ....... and that's okay.  Personally, I much prefer a dog that is much more into and prefers interacting with me than one who would prefer interacting with another dog.  Granted, I have always had multiple dogs, so it is possible I'd feel different if I were a single dog owner.  But I doubt it. 

Director of Training and Behavior Counseling Pup 'N Iron Host of Dog Sports and Performance Network on Pet Life Radio

I agree with Jeff Silverman:  I'm a trainer, and I'm not as down on dog parks as many others.  There are risks, but also many benefits.  Although I must say that some parks are better than others when it comes to having savvy owners!

I believe in educating people and helping to make dog parks safer and better.  I worked for years in San Francisco taking out small off-leash playgroups every day to dog parks in my neighborhood.  I became adept at assessing risks very quickly, and managing/reducing them.  For many of the dogs in my care, this was NOT their primary form of exercise; it was simply an opportunity to interact with other dogs, something that the owners and I felt was beneficial to these individual dogs.  I try to help other people read body language, understand risks, etc.

My own personal dogs seem to find great joy in playing with other dogs.  They get plenty of exercise and attention, and even interaction with other dogs since I board dogs in my home and have an acre fenced in for them to play in.  But nothing seems to replace the enjoyment they get from meeting new dogs, or seeing old friends, at a dog park.  I moved out of SF 3 years ago and into a place where there is not a single dog park in the entire county, and I miss dog parks.  We try to visit out old haunts whenever we are in SF.

Lastly, Eric, I appreciated your point of view and what you wrote, but I was disappointed to see that when a couple people raised criticisms or comments, you reacted in what seemed like a defensive way.  As far as I could tell, no one was attacking you, just raising questions.   Any critical thinker will ask him/herself about the potential biases of an author, and I don't think it was meant to question your integrity.  You, and all those who commented, seem sincere and respectful. 

Eden Halbert

Sierra Dogs

www.sierradogs.com

While dog parks are not for every dog (my old Boxer was an example of a dog who wasn't intrested in the dog park, so I didn't take her there), some of the commenters seem to forget that dog parks are not just for dog-dog play.

It's a place where I can play fetch with my (current) dog, let him sniff around, run, roll in the grass or play friesbee with him. And yes, the occasional play session with his doggy friends (he won't play with most dogs, although he is friendly).

Sure, if you have a yard you might not want or need a dog park. But in places where people don't have yards, and "regular" parks are legally off-limits for dogs (even if leashed), dog parks can be invaluble resource for responsible owners.

I have only one dog, and play dates for her are important.  I believe they are for most dogs that are the only dog at home.  It does makes a big difference living in a multi dog household.  Similar to having siblings for humans.  I would assume that your dogs play together often or at the least enjoy each other's company? Most dogs that live together do, and are fulfilled by those interactions.  As I initially stated, mature dogs do not benefit from dog runs as much as younger dogs, but many mature dogs like to have the company of other dogs now and again.  It is one of the many components in a dog's fulfilled life.

Eden - 

Jeff, and quite a few people (including you) managed to disagree with me without questioning my motivation. 

The idea that I would post this in order to drum up business (business I am not in, by the way) is not respectful disagreement. I share a lot of information about how people can train their dogs themselves, as does DSD. I expected this post to generate a little heat, but didn't really expect to have my motivation for blogging brought into question and yeah, it really ticked me off and I answered as I saw in kind. 

As far as the photo...it's a post about dog parks. I got a dog park photo. Seriously.

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Eric Goebelbecker
eric@dogspelledforward.com

Discussions always take on a life of their own, don't they?

1.  Are ALL dog parks bad?  Of course not, there are always exceptions to any rule.

2. Do adult, well socialized dogs with no fears or aggression toward their own species need dog to dog interaction in order to live a fulfilled life?  I still say no.

3. Do adult, well socialized dogs with no fears or aggression toward their own species prefer dog to dog interactions over interactions with humans?   Some do, some don't.

4. Can these interactions be accomplished without a dog park?  Absolutely!  And I would venture to say quite possibly better if the group is kept relatively small and all the dogs and owners are in agreement to structure and manage the play so the interactions are kept safe and positive and the dogs are not being reinforced for inappropriate behaviors.

5. Are there dog parks where you can ensure the above?  Very few.  The very nature of most dog parks is that anyone living in that community can bring his/her dog regardless of the owner's skills or the dog's temperament.

6.  Is there risk to everything we do in life.  Of course!  And each of us must weigh the risk vs. the potential benefits. For me personally, if I didn't have any other option, maybe I would choose a dog park and try to visit during non-peak hours and even convince other friends to come during those same times so we could form our own group.  So it is possible to make it work toward your dog's advantage with a lot of diligence. 

I consider myself fortunate to have other options.  Granted, I had to create it myself, so naturally I want to steer all my students and potential clients toward that option.  And not just to help me pay the exhorbetant monthly lease, but because I feel it is truly the better, lower risk option for their dogs!  They are who I created it for!

Director of Training and Behavior Counseling Pup 'N Iron Host of Dog Sports and Performance Network on Pet Life Radio

Why is that most of he trainers commenting on this board have a negative view of dogs being dogs with other dogs? I just don't get it. I defy any of you to come to Prospect Park in Brooklyn during off leash hours and tell me that this is bad for dogs. Dogs are pack animals and they need to interact with other dogs, especially during their younger years, to help them figure out where they fit in the world of dogs and humans. Our dog is now seven years old and is getting to the stage where she doesn't need to play with other dogs much. And that's fine. But she still looks forward to our seven mile round trip walk to and from the park. Sorry, but I can't see one thing negative about dogs being together.

njsitnstay.com

Ditto! Although it seems like a fine idea if you go to/pay for a doggy day care?  Fights happen there too, as do breakouts of viruses...all the time.  Are trainers watching the dogs at most daycares...no, typically never. My 5 year old dog loves her play dates and I wish I could do it more often for her.  She is not a candidate for dog parks, but I wish she was.  I have seen the dogs at Prospect Park and what fun!

xslf, to answer your question:

As far as I'm aware, it's legal to have dogs offleash in parks/public places here in the UK; it certainly is where I live, in the North of England.  The only caveat to that is if there are cattle or livestock grazing nearby - or in children's play areas.

Having said that, there are increasing restrictions on dog owners, such as the recently introduced ban on leads over 8ft in some public places in the UK:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1285625/Dog-owners-walk-pets-lea...

...that goes on in dog park.  Adolescent dogs need a wide variety of interactions with dogs of many phenotypes both physical and behavioral.  Adolescent dogs learn to read the language of dogs that are NOT well socialized, how to de-escalate a meeting situation, and how to approach other dogs in a 'respectful' manner.  They can best learn of this from older, socially mature dogs.

Humans cannot teach dogs how to behave as well adjusted, socially mature dogs.  Only dogs can do that, and they can do it for each other very well.  If they don't learn correct social behavior with other dogs, they will never attain social maturity...regardless of their age.   Perhaps a big part of the reason we have so many dogs with problem behaviors is that we remove them from their conspecifics before they have had the advantage of adolescent learning.

It seems to me that if someone takes a puppy home at 7-8 weeks they accept responsiblity for nurturing the dogs social development for the dogs entire life, not just for a few weeks.  If you don't have a group of mature dogs living in your home, or have a 'play' group, then with care taken, a dog park may provide your dog with opportunties you cannot provide.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it...

Chuck

"Train the dog you have in front of you...not the one you wished you had."

Doesn't it really comes down to owner responsibility, just like every other aspect of sharing your life with a dog? I'm lucky in that I recently moved to an area where the dog parks are filled with wonderful people and wonderful dogs, but I always assess the situation before entering and keep constant tabs on my dog.  Fortunately, so do all the other owners I've encountered at dog parks here.  Sadly, I can't say the same for the park where I used to live, so I didn't go very often and sometimes had to cut visits short. It was my responsibility to assess the situation and act accordingly, just as it was other owners' responsibilities to do the same for their dogs.

It seems to me that stating owners should avoid dog parks is too sweeping a generalization.  If we apply such generalizations, wouldn't any activity outside the safety of a fenced yard be called into question?  I've had FAR more (and worse) problems from undersocialized, loose dogs while walking my dog than I have ever had at a dog park.  I still choose to walk my dog twice a day.  I don't know of any trainers who would discourage me from doing so, despite the chance there might be a problem along the way.

Responsibility is key.  A park could be great one day and awful the next.  It's up to me to figure that out before opening the gate.

@SnappyPix: thanks. I wish my country would allow dogs offleash in parks/public areas :-(

More of more of them now started banning dogs entering altogether- on or off leash.

In some ways that is a problem with dog parks "you can take your dog to the dog park- now don't enter peoples' parks!"

On the other hand, I know some cities with no dog parks, and dogs are forbidden to enter any parks in those cities, on or off leash.

My own city opened a new park a couple of years ago, which I avoid- while dogs are allowed, they must be on (short) leash there at all times, and my dogs just gets too frustrated wanting to run there and being unable to. And I have seen AC there even at off-peak times, ready to fine any dog owner who's dog is offleash.

It just isn't worth the frustration.

First and foremost I am a professional dog trainer. I'll just get that out of the way now. In my classes and dealings with dog owners I steer them away from dog parks and towards creating play groups with dogs they know are friendly with their dogs. I do not have a day care or a facility, I do in home training. My motivation is for the owner and their dogs to live happy, safe lives.

One poster mentioned fights and viruses happen at day cares. Well they happen at dog parks too. Difference is, a well run day care has medical equipment and vets on call. You don't get that at dog parks.

The problem I see with dog parks is there is no structure. Hey, let's let 50 dogs run wild and see what happens! Pass my Mocha Latte!

Before you get all heated up about it really think about it. Is it really worth taking your dog to a dog park just so they can have "friends?"

I'll finish this with a comment from another poster about "pack animals." Yes they are pack animals, to a degree, however that works against you at a dog park. Regular dogs at parks can pack up and bully new dogs. Next time you take your dog there pay attention to the new dogs. Are they welcomed with open arms or are they molested by 10-15-30 dogs at one time? Dangerous situation.

And with that, I will end my rant. :o)

The assumption in the UK is that dogs are allowed in parks - whether on or off lead is down to local councils.  There are moves towards tighter regulation though - there are always ignorant or irresponsible dog owners who abuse the freedom by letting their dogs hassle people, or failing to clean up after their dogs. There are big advantages in having the run of the whole park - dogs meet each other one or two at a time, rather than as a large pack, and it is much easier to judge the risk and control any inappropriate play.   Where I live, it is very, very rare for an aggressive or reactive dog not to be under close control - it is the bouncy, over-friendly juveniles I have to watch out for!

I do believe off-lead play with other dogs is a hugely enjoyable activity for most dogs, and an important part of maintaining good canine social skills.  My two are happy to meet nice dogs and people, and will play joyously with polite dogs that are not too over-whelming.  I know how they would react to the sort of free-for-all dog parks described above, though - they would be firmly between my feet, asking to go home!

"Hey, let's let 50 dogs run wild and see what happens! Pass my Mocha Latte!"

So, if there are literally hundreds and hundreds of dogs running loose every day in Brooklyn's Prospect Park and that is so dangerous, why do people like me keep taking their dogs there? Because the dogs like it, have fun, and we responsible dog owners realize that. We also realize that your sense of danger is probably not justified, otherwise, we wouldn't do it. My dog lives a very happy and safe life, thanks.

"The problem I see with dog parks is there is no structure."

So, I think it's a control issue for you rather than what's really best for the dog.

I'll end my rant right here. I've said all I can say about this. I'm taking my mocha latte and Rosie to the park now.

I do agree with Roswood that trainers tend to overestimate risk, but the average owner tends to underestimate it pretty dramatically sometimes too.  Fights that result in terrible injuries do happen at dog parks.  I've seen two dogs over the years who inflicted those kinds of injuries.  I've had visitors to the dog park in question nearly unanimously scoff at my warnings that the dog was going to cause problems.

I don't, however, think that's the biggest thing that bothers trainers about dog parks.  What bothers me is that - in most of the parks I've visited - very few humans make any effort to interrupt inappropriate bullying behavior.  The dog park could be a far more welcoming place to a much larger cross section of dogs if owners bothered to learn a little about dog social behavior and do some simple things to prevent bullying or dangerous behavior.  Many dog parks wind up being a wonderful place for particularly extroverted adolescent dogs with an incredibly high threshold for aggression, while being an unpleasant experience for others. 

Chuck's comments about the need to for dogs to learn the social skills - particularly conflict resolution - and to be in a society of mature dogs are IMO spot on.  That's the primary reason that I take my adolescent dog to a dog park.  My social group right now primarily consists of old dogs uninterested in a rowdy adolescent or young dogs who quickly defer to my large, powerful, strong-willed dog.  Just being around a bunch of older more confident dogs instantly makes him more polite.

The problem is that people think I'm crazy when I gently intervene to solve problems.  I regularly see blatant bullying in the dog park that I visit.  The other owners not only allow it, but seem completely oblivious to the fact that it's even happening.  When it's directed at my dog, I let it go on for a while to let him learn to deal with it and practice conflict resolution.  If it doesn't stop, though, I start stepping in to gently redirect the bully. 

Nobody has been offended, but people clearly think I'm crazy.  These same people are shocked and surprised by every single fight that occurs in the dog park.  People whose dogs are aggessive and inappropriate almost always deny it, but other visitors never seem to see it coming either.  I've even had people who I tried to warn that their dog was going to start a fight insist to me after it happened that their dog wasn't fighting.  

That's what bothers me about many dog parks.  Owners who haven't even bothered to educate themselves enough to see problem behavior - let alone interrupt it - are IMO wildly irresponsible.  I've never been to Prospect Park roswood, but I hope that you'll forgive some skepticism from trainers about eye witness reports.  I, for one, know that if I could stop time a few seconds before every fight that happens at my dog park and ask people if the situation was problematic, the overwhelming majority of them would tell me that it wasn't. 

One final note to my long ramble is that there are definitely regional differences.  I've been to many dog parks in Calgary for example, and always been impressed by the calm well socialized dogs and the savvy responsible owners.  These are big open space dog parks where dogs tend to meet, play a bit and move on, rather than small enclosed areas.  Still, for a midwesterner who visits a suburban dog park the behavior of dogs and owners alike has been stunningly good.  I've also - in general - seen much better behavior than I'm used to by both species in visits to dog parks in West Coast cities.             

There's a lot of variety out there.  Discussion like this can shed more light and less heat if we stick to our own experiences or research and don't get offended by people who see things differently.     

"The problem is that people think I'm crazy when I gently intervene to solve problems.  I regularly see blatant bullying in the dog park that I visit.  The other owners not only allow it, but seem completely oblivious to the fact that it's even happening.  When it's directed at my dog, I let it go on for a while to let him learn to deal with it and practice conflict resolution.  If it doesn't stop, though, I start stepping in to gently redirect the bully."

At my local dog park there have been similar issues. What helped to solve them (in the most part) is to get some dog trainers come to the park, and teach people to read dog body language better, and talk about when and how to intervene.

I see that as a win-win-win: The dogs enjoy a safer experience at the park, the people learn and become better owners, and the dog trainers got some free publicity and I know that they got a few more clients that way.

Also- don't under estimate human social pressure! There have been two cases that I know of that people brought aggressive dogs to the dog park. When talking to them didn't help, other people simply left with their dogs when the problematic dog arrived.

After a few times that the park magically emptied, those problematic dogs stopped coming.

Did those people seek professional help with their dogs as suggested to them by other owners? I hope so. But at least they learned that brining a dog who starts fights and attacks other dogs isn't going to work out for them.

The best dog park I ever saw was a members-only park in Illinois.  An annual fee kept the poseurs out.  It was laid out as Dr. Dunbar suggests (not a big open field, but rahter broken up by little hills, trees, shrubs etc. to limit the number of dogs getting together at any one time.

Wanda Woodworth, MA, CPDT-KA
www.wandawoof.com

I agree with most what's said here. In addition, we would all benefit greatly if people understood and respected the rules of the dog park, as well as common sense etiquette. Aggressive, unneutered, fearful, highly stimulated, untrained dogs should not be in the dog run, nor should toys. The folks who run the dog run in my neighborhood insist on providing tennis balls which has caused fights/possessive behavior problems on a number of occasions. Owners need to understand their dog's body language to understand when there might be an altercation, pay attention to their dogs and not their phone gadgets, etc. I wrote an article about dog run etiquette that's on the IACP website: http://canineprofessionals.com/Public/ContentPage.aspx?PageID=1244

It is not a control issue. It is an issue of having owners who "turn off" at the parks while their dogs are doing whatever. Case in point, recently I was doing some tracking at a local park where one of our "best" dog parks is at. I saw a Doberman puppy, maybe 6 months old, being pressed against the fence for 5 minutes. I finally had enough and walked over to the fence and yelled for the owner. The owner was across the 2 acre field talking to a guy.

Mean while her poor little puppy was learning what? Sure wasn't good and it sure wasn't going to be healthy for that dog.

One dog park out of thousands does not mean all dog parks are safe or there are responsible owners there. The majority I have visited (in my state and others) are very similar. Owners walk in, release dog, go talk to people they know, dogs do whatever, people really could care less, etc...

Maybe you have a nice park. Good for you. Glad to hear that. I simply will not subject my dogs, whom I care for, to the possibility of them getting into a situation that could cause long term issues with their behavior. It's not worth it in my view.

As pres-elect of our local dog park association, I'd like to offer some thoughts and comments. I think it was Jeff that said dog parks seem to differ from region to region and I have to agree. I live in the Pacific NW, an area that historically has had no problems with dogs being off-leash on many trails, at lakes, streams, rivers, etc.

Having spent probably 100-200 hours at our local dog parks/off-leash areas, of which we have many, I have only witnessed one all-out fight in about 15 yrs. of attending dog parks. I find that the park that has the most problems is the only one that is fenced. I've come to the conclusion that fences equal lazy owners who either cannot control or do not care to control their dogs. All the other off-leash areas in my region have a great success rate of happy, socialized dogs whose owners closely monitor behaviors and make sure their dogs are playing with dogs that are appropriate in size/temperament.

I do agree, however, there are some owners and dogs that should not be at dog parks and my local association tries its best to educate people about who is appropriate and who isn't. I've often touted that a trainer/behaviorist should give talks on dog body language as well as how to correctly monitor dogs at a park. I do find that most trainers do not think favorably of dog parks, including my own who came to my house when my female was a puppy.

Having said that, however, I have seen too many happy, well-socialized dogs to totally discount dog parks as being unsafe and not worthwhile. Since my area has tons of off-leash hiking essentially right in town, dogs that have attended dog parks are much more predictable when meeting another off-leash dog on a trail as they tend not to freak out when a strange dog runs around the corner.

I understand about parasites, but no matter how hard you try to keep your dog healthy there is always the danger of picking up something. Our local shelter puts on Dog Days of Summer each Sept. One year a pooch chose to share kennel cough with almost every dog that attended, who then shared it with every daycare in town. It was an epidemic for awhile, including most of the dogs who had bordatella shots, mine included. Our mountains are rife with giardia, as I understand are some of the mud puddles at dog parks, but if given the choice to go backpacking for the weekend or stay home, I know what my dog would choose. To me, it's a quality of life question. My dog prefers the great outdoors to her backyard or another dog's backyard in comparison.

There is a great book by Cheryl Smith entitled "Visiting the Dog Park: Having Fun; Staying Safe" that I share with anyone who is interested. The more we can educate people who want to get their dogs out, the better. I don't condone dog parks as the dog's sole method of "exercise" such as the owners who go every day, stand around and talk while unconsciously tossing the "Chuck-it." But as a tool, I think dog parks make for a well-rounded dog. My dogs participate in agility, hiking, swimming, therapy work, training courses, etc., so the dog park is just another opportunity for them to have some fun, especially when Mom is tired or not feeling up to a long hike or outing to the beach.

I am not a trainer, but as an owner who cares very much for her dogs, I would never voluntarily or knowingly put my dogs in an unsafe environment. However, being a former mountain climber I also have a sense of adventure that I believe my dogs do too and am so very glad that while growing up I got to ride my horse, motorcycles, climb trees, and swim in the creek/river rather than be homebound by over-protective parents. I think dogs probably would agree.

If I felt there were unsafe dogs at any dog park, I'd probably say something to the dog's owner and then leave. Maybe more dialogue needs to occur about dog parks so they do become a safer place as a prior blogger noted. I appreciate all the comments as I am always soaking up knowledge and know that trainers have the most experience with a wide variety of dogs.

I went to a members only park in Jacksonville, my dogs and I had a great time. 45 acres, a lake, hiking trails, open area with obstacles to be jumped and played over. Absolutely fabulous. It definitely ranks up there with my favorite parks.

My favorite is a park in Los Angeles that is not really an official dog park, it's not fenced (though it's set into a canyon, so roads are far away) and dogs are not supposed to be off leash. That being said, people & dogs have been using it for decades. Newcomers are usually greeted and questioned upon arrival by the regulars and everyone watches out for each other and their dogs--if for no other reason than there is no fence and if a park ranger shows up, you better leash your dog quick or face a stiff fine. As a consequence the folks there are very responsible and attentive to their dogs. We took our dogs there for exercise and they were able to chase their ball or frisbee in peace with out interference from other dogs. We could focus on each other and play with our dogs in a big enough space. 

In reading this tread, I think it would be great if everyone could refrain from questioning the motives of each other in this discussion or suggesting that being either pro or anti dogpark makes one more or less concerned about their dogs. I've read a couple comments with the suggestion that "I don't let my dogs go to dog parks because I care about them." I'm guessing that everyone on this thread cares deeply about their dogs. That's why they're coming to a dog training blog instead of watching waterskiing squirrels and such on youtube. Respect that people come to different conclusions and it doesn't mean they don't care. It means they reached a different conclusion with a different viewpoint and set of facts before them. 

"Aggressive, unneutered, fearful, highly stimulated, untrained dogs should not be in the dog run, nor should toys."

What is the issue with intact males at the dog park? After all, intact doesn't automaticly mean aggressive or out of control.

I didn't see in reference to intact males in the italicized quote.  What's up with that???!!!???

Chuck

"Train the dog you have in front of you...not the one you wished you had."

I find it interesting that this point of view is being discussed on Dr. Ian Dunbar's website, the creater of the first dog park!  I have no opinions either way about dog parks, as I have a dog-aggressive dog and therefore have never stepped foot in one.  It just made me think how strange it is that the father of positive dog training created a place for dogs to go to play, and it appears that hardly any trainers are in favor of them anymore.  

In my experience, having spent approximately 4-6 hours per day in dog parks for about 6 years, intact males are not necessarily aggressive at all, but they do seem to be targets for other dogs.  There is no question in my mind that their presence changes the behavioral dynamics a lot.  Unspayed females were also problematic if they were close to their cycle.  As a dog walker, I would always move my groups away from intact males that entered the park.  I'm not making a judgment about intact males or their owners, simply noticing the correlation between their presence and increased conflicts in the park. 

Eden Halbert

Sierra Dogs

www.sierradogs.com

I have four dogs and rarely go to dog parks.  Two of them are older and not all that interested in scoializing that way anyways, and my younger two tend to "pack up" if I take them into a dog park together, and I don't like the ways I see them interacting with other dogs when they are in that mode.  I don't very much enjoy taking the dogs to the dog park and then leaving one at a time in the car.  Our local dog parks are pretty crowded and do not allow treats or toys from home, so they are not good places to train your dog, nor are they good places to just go and play ball. What I want is not so much a place to let my dog play in an enclosed space with a couple dozen strange dogs at a time, but a place where I can jog or hike with the option of my dog being off leashed (if he/she is well enough trained) or a place where I can throw a ball or frisbee for my dog or even just able to train my dog off leash without always having to keep my eyes peeled for police or animal control.  Encountering other well behaved dogs while doing these things would be fine (and maybe having a canine buddy or two that my dogs can play well with), but I find the chaotic mishmash of a typical 1 acre (or less) suburban dog park very stressful.  I've been to England a few times, and people seem to be able to play ball or frisbee off leash with their dogs in most public parks, and aside from the issue of some people not picking up their dogs' poop (same issue exists here even with strict leash laws), most  people seem accepting of it being a normal part of having a dog and visiting a park.

Hi Eric. Great article once again. I do have mixed feelings about dog parks, though. Yes, there is no guarantee that the owners and dogs will be well-mannered and that your dog won't get into a brawl, but I also make a point of my dog meeting as many unfamiliar dogs as possible, as often as possible. He has his usual buddies, but there's nothing like regularly meeting a new face to keep your dog's social skills honed (in my humble opinion).  So I agree, it has its risks (my dog has been attacked a couple of times by a vicious dog), but I refuse to let that discourage me and, as far as I'm concerned, the benefits can outweigh the risks. I am now a lot more vigilant and if I see a dog being too boisterous or tense, I don't get near and walk on. I live in the Netherlands, though, so I have no idea how thigngs are in the States?

Canis bonus - Pet photography and canine columnist - http://www.canisbonus.com

I hold play groups at my training center, and have been supervising dog play groups for many years.  Not only do we allow owners to watch, they must remain with their dogs or the dog can't play.  I am always there to make a running commentary on the dogs' behavior, so the owners who come regularly get much better educated about canine body language.  I do not think it's ok to just toss a bunch of dogs in to a park with only the owners to supervise - rather like parents at a hockey game if the kids start to fight...mostly all the parents think their own kid is right;-)  Or, they frustrate their dogs by punishing normal play behavior, or by unwittingly encouraging bullying.  Some owners whose dogs have "issues" think that bringing them to the dog park will help socialize them - when the socialization period is long since passed and the dog would really rather be anyplace else on earth.  Some of them finally resort to using their teeth to make that point.  I find that many trainers are not as savvy as they should be either.  Recognizing canine language is a skill that needs to be honed, just as you would hone your clicker timing skill or your ability to shape a retrieve.  So, why take your dog to a totally unsupervised environment and expect other owners to know that stuff?

Hi - I wasn't implying that intact males are automatically aggressive or out of control. I was listing a variety of potentially problematic examples that I myself have observed in dog runs. If we have an intact male in the dog and an unspayed dog is also there, then obviously we see the potential problem. It's not just an issue of aggression, since some unneutered dogs are certainly well-behaved. However, we must recognize that there are a number of owners out there who not only don't care to neuter, but encourage aggressive, dominant behavior.

Yes, dog parks can be "interesting", but dogs need to be dogs and certain level of risk has to be accepted for the greater good. Thats my take anyways.