Can't We (Trainers) All Just Get Along?

Thanks for posting this. I fell into a similar trap a while back, and finally decided that what is important is what how I train dogs and hopefully as I improve that I can serve as an effective example for others.Positive reinforcement works on all species and primates are very, very good at modeling…..food for thought.

I am so happy you wrote this. I am only a doggie parent who is now having to help her dog out with many fears. I have spoken to many trainers here that poo-poo eachother like they're the plague. I feel bad for other owners who don't know what to make of it..... i tell them - go to the expert - Dr. Dunbar. I wouldn't go to a trainer that talks about her colleagues like that? 

I am a violinist.... have studied with some great teachers - and you know the best teachers are the ones who know where you are coming from - where you want to be and show you many ways to get there. The teachers who are the most successful are the ones who don't talk about other colleagues or tell you what you've been doing is all wrong - they keep you focused on the end result - they teach.  That is why Dr. Dunbar is so good - he reminds me of my 2 favorite violin teachers - 1 in NYC (well she died a few years ago) and 1 in Japan (well he died too - i miss both of them very much). Thank You for writing this.

Nicole, I like your analogy between dog training ideology and politics (and you could throw religion in there too) ..... very partisan, both evoke strong emotions and those who are invested in either side are driven by passion.  Passion can lead to people saying and doing things they wouldn't normally say or do.  Running a large dog training facility, and hosting various different competitive dog sport trials and events, like you I know and associate with people who train using all different methods.  There'd really be no way to avoid it, nor would I necessarily want to.  It is always my goal to show the results of how I train and thus, inspire others to give it a try.  How could I effectively do that if I segregate myself?  That's just preaching to the choir and really doesn't help bring others to the fold.  Even when I was on Greatest American Dog, though the producers thought it was more entertaining to overdramatize differences between me and another trainer, we mostly got along pretty well and we respected each other's passion, accomplishments and knowledge.  However, I must admit, just like politics and religion, when in a mixed training ideology social environment, we tend to avoid deep discussions about any controversial training topics.  They certainly know where I stand, and I know where they stand, and we respect each other.  There's a time and place for those deeper discussions, such as a training forum (preferably moderated ;-)), workshop, etc., but you're right, the conversation should always be kept respectful.  There are people who seem to devote their entire training blogs to cutting down opposing trainers and their methods, which is such a waste of time and ultimately unwise.  Our time and energy is much better spent showing and telling why and how we train the way we do rather than give time and attention to who and what we're supposedly so against.  Thanks for the post!

Director of Training and Behavior Counseling Pup 'N Iron Host of Dog Sports and Performance Network on Pet Life Radio

Excellent post Nicole! I'm glad someone said this! We all have much to learn and much to offer.  

Elisabeth Catalano, MA, CPDT, CDBC www.thelittlewhitedog.com

Thanks all for the feedback. Good to know others feel the same way. And Laurie, you're right, it's just like discussing religion or politics, and in some situations it's more comfortable not to discuss the deep issues, but to simply accept our differences and find common ground in other areas. I have had some pretty amazing discussions with friends of different religious backgrounds, political affiliations, and dog training philosophies, all conducted with respect on both sides. I don't know that any minds were necessarily changed to "the other side" but these discussions did result in a deeper understanding of how others think and feel, and therefore a greater acceptance of others who are not just like us.

This is really accurate. Every time I see this kind of fighting online it makes me GREATFUL that most people wouldn't dare make those comment to the other persons face because then enters Dr. Dunbar’s 'big syringe' concept – piss off another trainer badly enough and your killing dogs by the truckload. If you know a trainer that actually, genuinely abuses dogs, take a picture and report them for abuse! Otherwise, ok, maybe we don’t agree with the kind of training they’re using but methodology always takes a second to skill. Good trainers get good results no matter what methods they use, I’ve known some brilliant ‘training collar’ trainers and although I don’t agree with the methods I have to admit that they are excellent dog trainers producing very well trained dogs that go on to lead happy lives. I think the ‘positive reinforcement’ camp needs to meet the ‘correction’ camp halfway and agree to gang up on bad trainers everywhere regardless of methods. We need regulations and standardized certification, THEN we can worry about method. :)

on a slightly different topic "There are also trainers closer to this end who would have no idea what to do if, for example, an aggressive dog wasn’t responding to treats." <------ that’s MY dog and every trainer I’ve taken her to. She also doesn't respond to praise, clickers, toys, playtime, food of any kind or any other reward I can dream up. So… I’m flat out of ideas.

Excellent, Nicole!  I see many trainers, rehabbers, and rescuers that are forced to "defend" their ways by the beligerance of the "R+ only" sort.  Honestly, I've never seen it the other way around, but maybe it's there and I've just missed it.  And so true, we are all doing this because we love dogs and we want them and their families succeed and be happy together.  As Cesar says - All ways are good that do not harm the dog.  Also, not all ways will work for all people and all dogs.  Every dog is different and every person is different.  One person may simply not work well with one method, as compared to another.  And one dog may not do as well with one method over another.  It's all variable.  As a business owner myself, I've learned to never criticize another in my line of work.  It's just bad business ethics and nobody comes out smelling like a rose.

Yes, if the nonsense would just stop and the minds open up a bit, then a lot more dogs could be saved.     

Good article and I agree, to a point. It would be wonderful if we could all "just get along" be it in politics, religion, or even dog training. And our first approach should always strive for civility and respect.

But the reality can be different. There is the truth, and there are lies. There is information, and there is deliberate misinformation. There are facts and there are distortions of reality.

And if people don't know the difference between them, that's a shame. But that doesn't mean that the sane, intelligent, fact seekers among us are responsible for others idiocy, its existence, its perpetration, its promotion, or its consequences. IMHO.

On certain levels there may be legitimate debate and discussion regarding different training modalities, to a point. But once abuse rears its ugly head, all bets are off. If we remain silent in the face of abusive and harmful training techniques, we become complicit in there perpetuation.

Certain people can never be reasoned with no matter how many facts, statistics, or positive examples are shown. So it is in politics, religion, and unfortunately among dog trainers.

Increased education and sites such as this will go far in alleviating much of the severe treatment of dogs as far as punitive and abusive training goes. Unfortunately it will never end such treatment though.

You said your dog doesn't respond to any of the usual rewards, including food. What is she fed? If she's already getting something really valuable like cooked chicken, you could try using her meals as training treats instead of giving it to her at mealtimes. But the real key, assuming she's really just not interested in any type of food reward (and I'm assuming we're talking about when she's outside, with distractions) is to find out what it is that's valuable to her. Let's think outside the box. She must enjoy something in life, whether it's sniffing the grass, going to see another dog, getting a tummyrub, jumping up on you, going back to the house, taking a fast sprint with you, maybe a high-value toy like a furry pelt moving along on a string? Just a couple ideas.

And not proud of it. But looking into the eyes of a young dog who was trussed up in various contraptions sold by another trainer and hearing the absolute desperation of the owner who had purchased these things without a plan... I had to say Grrrrrr.

After 2 hours of assessment and getting immediate responses from a now tail-wagging dog, I sold them "hope". (Guess I'm the fool as it was a free assessment and all I could ask was "who's the trainer and do you still have your receipts for the gear?")

Thanks Nicole. How timely and self-reflecting to read your comments. I'll strive to improve.

Peace, Donna

My running joke was always that you couldn't distract her from another dog with a raw t-bone steak. A friend of mine finally called me on this, stating that surely I was exaggerating, SURELY if I used an actual steak it would get her attention. I have been known to exaggerate in the past so I agreed that probably a steak would work. So I bought one, Ziploced it and took it with me on a walk. We did finally see another dog, a nice big happy retriever and Solstice started her usual frothing-foaming-leaping-lunging-freak-on-a-leash routine. Out comes the steak, I literally waved a raw T-bone steak in front of her nose and bumped her on the end of the nose with it and her only reaction was to side-step it so it wasn't blocking her view of the other dog. (Anyone who doubts this store is SO welcome to accompany me on a steak-walk :P )

Her regular dog food is Pro Plan Salmon & Rice and Pro Plan Lamb & Rice (Both kibble), she seems to have food allergies and the Salmon & Rice is 'skin and sensitivity' formula but she doesn't like it much so I mix in some Lamb & Rice to get her to eat it. She also gets a small amount of Lean Cuts soft food in the evening. She will occasionally go days without eating her kibble for no apparent reason. I've tried her on a number of brands all of which (except Pro Plan) made her sick and she really doesn't seem to care for dog food. She doesn't like any kind of dog biscuits or cookies that I've found so far, the highest honor she will award a dog-cookie is to actually take it from my hand, bury it in the garden and never dig it up… otherwise she just drops them on the ground and leaves. She isn't really big on people-food. Her top 3 food choices are definitely 1. Beef Jerky, 2. Pepperoni (not the made for dogs stuff) 3. Raw meat. but these things all cease to exist when another dog is present. It's like tunnel vision. Generally she doesn't care MUCH for toys, games, food, petting, etc. but when there is another dog around she doesn't care at all. Nothing exists but the other dog. I've tried the following as distractions all of which failed to break her concentration: Waving a raw steak, and all other forms of available food (Roast chicken, roast beef, raw beef, deli meat, cheese, liver, etc.) Leash corrections (With a regular nylon collar or halti, never a 'training' collar), obedience commands, reprimands, instructive reprimands, turning her head, her body and her eyes away from the other dog, body blocks, squeaking a squeak toy (her favorite kind) and various other toys she sort of likes.

I understand what you're saying. Apparently meeting another dog is the best reward in the world for her. Two things: one is, you're working too close to the distraction (other dog). There MUST be a distance at which she's not reactive, even if that's two blocks away. Start working at that distance--otherwise she'll never be under threshold. When she's doing well at that distance, Work very gradually closer, and assuming she's not actually dog-aggressive, the ultimate reward can eventually be meeting the other dog.

A key element I'm getting from what you write is timing.  Don't wait for your dog to already be doing the undesired thing.  A train can be prevented from moving with a rock in its tracks if it's there when the wheels are just barely beginning to turn.  But once it's going full speed it's too late.  You need to redirect him before he escalates.  You need to be keeping an eye out for these other dogs and keeping an eye on your dog's reactions.  Notice the first hint of his change of behavior.  THAT's when you redirect.  And you can do that with a treat, a touch, a sound, throw him a ball, or whatever will redirect his attention.

This is a wonderful article. I favor the Dog Whisperer because I have used many of his methods and a lot of his philosophy with my dog (and my cats!) and they work, but I am learning classical conditioning and reward based training a la Dr. Dunbar at our animal shelter and I have seen many good and useful tips from watching other animal experts. I believe that every dog is different and each dog needs a method that they respond to and a trainer/owner they respect and trust as well as love.

The goal is to live with our dogs, to save dogs from being euthanized, to rescue dogs -- while we fight with each other, these goals get ignored! No one is perfect, but it will take a lot of imperfect people working together to fight outright abuse and make sure there are no more homeless animals!

Thanks for this lovely and gracious plea!

Unfortunately she is incredibly dog-aggressive and she has hurt dogs in the past. Her 'best reward in the world' seems to be hurting the other dog. Clsmoonchild is right about the timing. Timing it right seems to be the only thing that makes any difference at all but the thing is there is NO DISTANCE at which she is comfortable so to time it right I have to see the other dog before she does. If I can see another dog before she sees the other dog and start petting and calming and settling her before she sees it, then she will be less reactive when she notices it approaching. If she sees it first (even at 200 yards before I can even tell it's a dog) it's already too late to time an intervention. This makes it impossible to do a gradual transition because either 1. There are no dogs in sight and she is perfectly behaved or 2. There are dogs in her line of site and she is reacting to them. She is either completely over her threshold or completely under it.

Yes, as you said timing is crucial when you are doing desensitization/counterconditioning. So if you see the dog first you can "get a foot in the door" and get your dog's attention and do classical conditioning. I know you've had some bad experiences with trainers, but I would strongly urge you to try to find a trainer through the APDT (www.apdt.com), hopefully there is one in your area that will be able to help. Or if not right in your area, perhaps at a distance where you can meet halfway. 

Apparently I live in some little known under-certified area of the globe... there is one woman 2 hours away who is an 'APDT associate'. For an APDT professionally certified member I'd have to go to Vancouver or Calgary, both of which are 6+ hours away. I've met the other local trainers and although they are good trainers they do not seem to have anything to offer Solstice. She is quite a "special" case and for the most part their response is 'I don't think I can help you' I don't have a lot of experience and if this was someone else’s dog I think I'd probably say the same thing. It's also harder when it's your own dog (At least for me) and Solstice is kind of a trainers nightmare. :P

How about DVD's, to follow up books when in between classes or trainers?   They helped me remember what my trainer had talked about, so I could practice.  Plus there are fun exercises ie... Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed.   I'm sure there are tons out there but this is my latest favourite.  Maybe someone can recommend something that would be a good starting point?  Try searching on this site.  The search tool is great.

Having a dvd or book made practicing at home is less stressful too.   It was nice to be able to rewind and review,  so the both of us got the hang of the routine before we take it to the streets (working in areas that are sub threshold of course).

happy-houndz.blogspot.com cheers, kate

Desiree, I fully sympathize, because I have a similar problem --- with the exception that my dog has actually never hurt another dog.  She just flips them on their backs and yells at them.  My dog also starts getting nervous when she smells another dog, so I'm not always able to know about the presence of the fear inducing thing before she does.  That said, let me reiterate two things said previously, because they're working for me: 1) Notice your dog's slightest change in emotion and just assume she has good cause to be afraid.  Don't go searching about for the cause of her fear.  And 2) at that point try Look At That from Control Unleashed.  It really can work.  If your dog is starting to whine, look at you, get tense, etc., and you can determine just the direction she seems to be concerned about, you can use Look At That to diffuse her fear.  Really.  Oh, and 3) give TTouch a try.  After nearly a year I'm seeing a real difference in the basic level of anxiety my dog carries around with her daily.  She's still going to a professional practitioner twice a month, but oh is it worth it.  The trust it has built between us has helped enormously (I do 20 minute sessions with her daily). 

I especially like your point that you will never change anyone's minds about their training methods with hostility. My local club was very correction based. I had a dog with aggressive tendencies and their methods were not working (just making it worse suprise, suprise!) so I went and learnt from an amazing trainer and I changed my whole training concept. I then returned to the club and used these methods and showed how well they worked. You know what, when they saw my previously lunging, growling dog working happily at my side gazing at me - they got interested and they asked questions. I never made adverse comments about their methods. We now have a club with training very much in the middle of the spectrum - very positive based, with minimal correction used. No longer do you need a check chain to join - you can use any collar you like.

A picture tells a thousand words.

With the aggressive dog - please keep at it - you will get there - stay calm and positive. I did! I too live far away from the main "action" - I actually had an amazing trainer email me a detailed work plan with step by step instructions. It didn't happen overnight - I worked hard at it. I found someone with a dog mine hated with a vengeance and we went to a secluded area almost every day and I slowly and slowly got closer with loads of high value rewards and happy happy me. I taught him that when that dog was around life was simply wonderful. At first they may not take rewards, move further away - then they might take one or two then carry on a like a pork chop. Progress can be slow but improvement does come - although maybe your dog will never be able to frolic off leash with lots of dogs - but hopefully you can at least take it for a stress free walk!  Good luck!

There's a couple videos that Dr. Dunbar has on this site which explain Classical Conditioning, www.dogstardaily.com/videos/classical-conditioning  and his  lure/reward   www.dogstardaily.com/videos/adult-dog-lurereward-training   and how to apply it in everyday life which I think are awesome. Use the Search tool on the site for your subject, then see the right side bar to see if there is a video that matches the subject.

Dr. Ian Dunbar's Jazz'm up game to play at home too is awesome, the video of walking he has is great...  Any emotional control games where they have to resist temptation, without you telling them to...Jazz 'm up game was the pillar of our puppy classes.......and when they do....great stuff rains from the sky helps to lay a foundation of "resisting what they really really really are nuts about ..ie another dog...as when they do......something better rains from the sky or.....eventually they build up enough self control, so that they are emotionally capable of going to the next step...until they slowly work their way up to walk behind or walk beside or meet another dog.

 I play emotional control games or even tricks on walks with my dogs everyday.  Watch the puppy class videos on this site and you'll see them all learning emotional control in the midst of a crazy puppies running all over the place, resisting temptation of interacting with another puppy until their owners release them as a reward for a sit, or rollover to go play.   They love games and tricks and it's a way to keep them focused on me and builds history that I'm fun and interesting too.  When they do something for me, then reward is they get to sniff for a bit, meet the other dog, whatever.... Here's Dr. Dunbar's youtube link w/videos   http://www.youtube.com/user/DogStarDaily

I also loved Control Unleashed exercises: default behaviours, Whiplash head turn, Doggie zen, Leave it, Touch, TTouch lays the foundation for "Look at that" game which is the turning point for most foster dogs (all my foster dogs have had some level of emotional control issues when on leash)

Here's a video sample of the Look at that game.  You can start off with a toy, or chew or food something they love but are not going to be out of their mind about and then slowly work your way up to whatever the dog is crazy out of control for.  Working sub threshold is key if dog is reactive.  I love her youtube channel as well.

http://www.cleanrun.com/images/productvideos/CU_LookAtThatGameSnitchExam...

Here's with a dog that is reactive to other moving dogs.  

http://www.cleanrun.com/images/productvideos/CU_ElfExample.wmv

 and I'm actually working on "Incoming" exercise for my little beagle George who has had a rush of dogs come after him in the past few weeks.   Times where we're just having fun and goofing around.  Not sure if it's because he's so cute :P  or there's something in the air, or if it's just because we look like we're having fun and they want to join in.....but it scares the bejiibies out of me...so her "Incoming' game is what we're working on now.  

Best of luck, Don't give up!

happy-houndz.blogspot.com cheers, kate

Desiree, I have an idea of what you're dealing with. My dog and I have made huge strides together, but I can tell that sometimes she just ENJOYS fighting. It's like when I get satisfaction from explaining to someone how wrong they are in the comments section of some blog. So I hear you on that, in certain cases the actual fighting can be rewarding to the dog.

Here is some stuff that I think has improved things for us:

- EXERCISE and STIMULATION. I know you probably do this already, but it's so crucial. Even one boring day can make some furkids much more difficult to handle. Does the dog get to run and zoom around every day or do satisfying physical labour? Does it get to sniff interesting new things every day?

- LEARNING TRICKS FOR FUN. I hope you can find a way to make tricks (obedience) totally awesome for your dog. One I find particularly useful is "about face". My dog is now happy to turn right around, away from whatever could potentially make her act insane. However, the key component for this is having the best possible rewards for her, often more along the lines of stalking/chasing squirrels (although she will always accept home-dried liver treats). What is most rewarding to your dog? It can take a lot of time and work for it to believe that your "commands" are a great idea no matter what, and to comply before things get ugly, but it can be done if you are able to provide truly enjoyable rewards (this includes the actual learning process, which should be fun).

- I believe this has been discussed in the comments on another post, but you might benefit from the use of a basket muzzle. The dog can still open its mouth, drink water and be fed treats through one of these. There are many advantages, namely, the dog can no longer do a lot of damage and you will probably feel more relaxed. You may find it easier to figure out what your dog really wants or what it is most motivated by if you can give it a few more feet of leash without worrying that any other dog will be injured. It could help you figure out what the most powerful rewards are and how to use them. Also, your dog won't get the same results from biting or aggressive behaviour. The muzzle is a tool to help you during training, though. You shouldn't have to rely on it forever, and the dog should like or at least be neutral to wearing it. And you can't exactly waltz into a dog park and bust out the treats to make it so.

I agree with what's been said here about timing. You aren't modifying behaviour anymore if the dog is already reacting. If it ignores a raw t-bone, it is definitely too stressed to be learning anything. Also, I mean, your dog could smell the steak on you the whole walk. Maybe there's some resource guarding thrown in there to make things more fun for you. Is the behaviour worse when you're all outside with your other dogs?

I suspect your dog's issue is more complicated than simply not liking other dogs. It seems like it wants something out of the interaction. I really hope you can get closer to some answers. Good luck!

Alyson: she does that too (the flip and yell) about 1/4 of the time.

I will definitely look into Control Unleashed and TTouch. I'll try 'Look At That' and see how it goes. I have a ton of books and DVD's and we do do lots of stuff at home but she seems to forget it all when she sees another dog. (She is already really well 'trained' in terms of behaviors on command and obedience)

ginginbonbon, basket muzzles are really hard to find around here. None of the pet stores in ANY neighboring town have them. I finally ordered one online and (although it took 3 weeks to get through customs) it arrived today and it fits!!! YAY!

We've been doing some classical conditioning with the dog next door. Every couple of days my neighbors boyfriend stops by with his dog and puts the dog in the yard next to mine, separated by a chain link fence. This is one of the few dogs Solstice actually seems to kind of like (although I'm sure she'd pounce on him if they met loose) and with the fence there she is (just barely) comfortable enough to eat in front of him so every time he comes to visit out come the food and games! visiting dogs are fantastic! hooray! :)

What I'm really not sure about is whether its fear of other dogs or if she actually just loves fighting. I'm pretty sure it's fear but she's definitely getting some satisfaction out of it, she looks for any opportunity to fight and never loses.

The thing is, her body language is all wrong, like, her signals are really mixed up. Her body language switches between friendly/playful/frightened/aggressive/'dominant' posturing/'submissive' posturing very rapidly and although I've observed myself, the other dogs and her surroundings I don't see any definite triggers. It's like she doesn't speak dog at all.

Desiree, you are a jewel!  What a lucky duck Solstice is.

With Jake, Alice at Dogsmart cracked his anxiety for meet and greets in the first out and about class.  She noticed right away that Jake sucked at head on meet and greets, didn't have the social skills or emotional know how to deal with them.

 We found out that if we did the "Look at that game" from a distance, watched for interested but relaxed body language from Jake, then approached the other dog and human walking a subthreshold distance from behind, if all was relaxed and he could do tricks and concentrate on me, we walked beside the dog, then both dogs stopped, distance apart,  did tricks close by with the other dog, both in sits,  before he met them.  If his body language relaxed and he was his loosey goosey charming self he could actually meet the dog for a quick sniff, then be on his way without any drama or dog in mouth :P

Basket muzzles rock!  I suggested that for Jakes new family until they got the swing of things.  It takes the pressure off you, and other people with dogs keep their distance instead of having to tell them all the time "my dog is not good with other dogs"...which they normally ignore...and say that "it's okay, my dog's friendly!" 

Hopefully you'll keep me posted!

cheers, 

kate

happy-houndz.blogspot.com 

I had to laugh at your comment that your dog 'doesn't speak dog at all'.  I feel the same way about my girl.  I tried CAT (Constructional Aggression Treatment -- talk about another type of training where we all just need to "get along") with her, hoping to teach her dog language.  She was so far over threshold I don't think she learned much.  We took it far too fast.  But she is great with my other dog, does all the right play posturing, stops and starts, yawns, etc. She does know 'dog' when she's not totally stressed. I suspect you forget your language skills when you're scared out of your wits, too.  I know I do.

Since you've got a dog that's trying everything under the sun in rapid succession, if you can catch any of the good stuff with, say, a clicker -- or using the cue 'Look At That' when she does something nice and then c/t when she turns back to you, you might get somewhere.  Once again, though, don't wait until you can perceive the other dog, just until she perceives it. Oh, and just assume it's fear.  It doesn't help your mood or training to think otherwise.  Your feeling that she's getting some satisfaction from fighting could be real, but it might be the same sort of satisfaction you might get out of removing a stressor from your environment, however that was accomplished.

Oddly, my dog is responding to 'good dog', even when she's practically speechless in the presence of another dog (at 200+ ft.).  Calling her by name doesn't help; clicking doesn't help consistently.  I say 'good dog' and her attention returns to me.  Talk about a conditioned reinforcer.

Since this discussion doesn't really pertain to the original article, is there another place we can take it?

Hi Desiree,

I've gotten really nice wire basket muzzle from www.morrco.com, and it was a far better buy than I saw elsewhere. Getting the fit exactly right is crucial, call them, they'll tell you how. I also found the nose strap crucial, otherwise a dog could sort of pry the muzzle off , so I look for a muzzle that has a strap that goes from the neck strap between the ears to the top middle of the muzzle. The neck strap of a muzzle is quite tight, like a gentle leader, but we don't clip the leash to the muzzle, but to a separate collar....

Jenny Ruth Yasi Whole Dog Camp www.wholedogcamp.com

Desiree,

I know it's frustrating working with a dog that has a long distance reactivity to other dogs, plus a limited reinforcement repertoire.  However, one thing that occurs to me is that you may want to totally solidify a "watch me" cue.  Do it at home with zero distractions first, then start changing locations in and around the home, but still limiting the distractions.  Once she knows the cue and is doing it instantly and repeatedly whenever you ask, you are more likely to be able to get her to do it outdoors at that very long distance (with you noticing the dog first, or setting things up so that a dog appears at the prescribed distance, under her reactivity threshhold).

I would also try training her when she is very hungry, so don't train after dinner!  And, avoid free feeding her - have a scheduled mealtime, so that you know when she is full or empty.  You can use Easy Cheese as a reward because the nozzle fits between the slots in the muzzle, and many dogs that don't take treats like cheese. 

I'm a little concerned that you may not be using the clicker properly, because of your comment that "clicking doesn't help".  The click should only come AFTER the dog has exhibited a behavior you want to reward, not as a signal to DO a behavior.  Perhaps I misunderstood you, but thought I'd clarify just in case, and for readers who might not know.

If you don't have a trainer nearby, there are some free lessons on www.clickerlessons.com, and you'll find the ones on "attention" and "leave it" useful for this type of dog.  Once you are able to couple "leave it" and "come," those are life saving cues:-)

Good references on aggression and reactivity:

http://www.amazon.com/Feisty-Fido-Help-Leash-Aggressive-Dog/dp/189176707...

http://www.amazon.com/Click-Calm-Healing-Aggressive-Clicker/dp/189094820...

http://www.amazon.com/Aggression-Dogs-Management-Prevention-Modification...

Hope some of this helps,

Anne Springer, Paws for Praise  www.pawsforpraise.com

I have been so patient with many of my friends who don’t train like me. My good friend had a pinch collar on her dog in a kennel with a leash through the door and the dog was reacting to another dog at a show.  She asked me to give it a pop because I was closer to the dog. I can’t lie that my skin didn’t curl as I moved toward the dogs cage.  I believe her method will give the dog bad associations with other dogs. I half debated on refusing but I know that if this is what she is doing I better help her be consistent.  I think to my self, 'I will keep working on her because she has the best intent of her dogs.'

In my area, I am one of two ‘Cookie-slinging weenies’. We are ‘up against” at least ten professional ‘Jerk trainers’. I am a member of a number of dog clubs and I am totally outnumbered and alone.  I am strong and stubborn on how I want MY dog handled and have developed a good relationship will all the clubs’ members.  

I am on the board of the local kennel club here. At the last club meeting they had a speaker come do a demonstration on shock collar training.  I was interested in his timing and how he was accomplishing the training.  I soon realized he was totally unaware of how the dog was learning: classically conditioned to the very low shocks made fast responses. He had said that dogs trained with a sound then shock had a stronger reaction of fear to the sound then the low shock and that the beep/shock collar was a poor tool.  He didn’t know why the beep gave the dogs a strong fear reaction. He also said that the shock collar training has been imporved, that in it's history there were many dogs with 'unhappy' reactions. One of the dogs was yelping at every shock he gave. It was very hard for me to watch. I was very polite at first and was interested in how he was doing the training.  But as he did his demonstration he said, “There are only three ways you can establish a command (cue) and they are pinch, chock, and shock equipment.”  I said, “I can establish a command using conditioning.”  (I thought to myself, ‘You’re using it too, but you just don’t know it.’)  He laughed at me for a good while and then began attacking me in front of the club.  “I’ve won all these awards in obedience competitions and field trials.  What have you done?” I said, “I help train many shelter dogs.”

“So, you don’t do any competition training” I replied “I do weight pulling!”  He laughed at me again and said “I’ve won   . . . this that and the other in blah blah blah.”  I said “Your well shocked dogs might look real good in front of these people but I know what you do behind closed doors. You are abusive to dogs and get your kicks off on it. Show us a dog with no training and the process!"  He didn't want to share his training process, just the fininsh work.  I said "Dogs with shock collar sores come in to my store because people see your dogs and think they can do use it to but they don’t use it right.  I don’t even think there is a way to use it right. You have no idea how the learning process goes and what you are doing to that dog’s mental health and you’re supposed to be the shock collar expert.”

This comment embarrassed him. He stood there for a minute and then said he was going to trade dogs so that he wasn't using a yelping dog, I think. He went over to his car, to the kennels and unlock a caged.  The club’s VP was the one who set up the educational speaker and he said something about how this guy was a great trainer and we need to give him our respect.

I then felt a little bad because I know it is important to be tolerant to other trainers. It is important to help grow our industry. It is the same in all pet professional fields.  You don’t talk bad about the groomer or the vet down the street.  

My behavior has put a tear in the relationship with my club friends. I want to justify myself because I was being attacked.  All I had worked hard in influencing these people to what I want to call the ‘light side.’ This man was insulting me and my training methods which have become somewhat of a religion for me.  What should of I done? Not said anything,  change my opinion, stop trying to convert people slowly & gently or even at all?

The joy in my dogs' eyes and their desire to train (heck, they'll almost fight each other for the chance) is what keeps me trying to convert others.  Perhaps you can arrange a lecture on the body language of dogs by someone well known (e.g. Sarah Kalnajs or Brenda Aloff or...).  Then, when someone tries to show off aversive training methods, hopefully the other trainers will recognize the despondency in the dog's eyes.  I did manage to get one person to stop using a choke chain just by pointing out that her dog refused to look at her while she had the dog in a 'stay'.  It broke her heart when she realized what she was doing. 

Beyond that, just keep setting a good example at every opportunity. A well-behaved dog is your best advertisement.  Work on some of the 'hard stuff' -- like getting your dog to drop tasty food on command, or whatever the lecturer was demonstrating.  And then point out that the difference between what you've accomplished and what he had, is that your dog is still enjoying working with you --- and that's it!  Both dogs may be well-behaved, but your dog still wants to learn and has learned something about how to learn.

There are some great videos of dogs being trained with a clicker on 'www.reachingtheanimalmind.com'.  In the corresponding book, Karen Pryor says she doesn't try to argue with people like that lecturer your club had.  They'll either come around -- or they won't.  See if you can convince anyone in your club to attend a ClickerExpo.  The sheer number of well-behaved dogs there, and none of them on choke chains, along with live demonstrations of actual training taking place in minutes was enough to blow me away. 

Best of luck and don't give up.  But I think, as you just found out, arguing won't get you anywhere, so just keep putting the emphasis on the positive. 

I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this, and I know it can be particularly difficult when you're the only one trying to get a different type of training philosophy across when you're surrounded by others who are convinced their methods are the right ones.

I was thinking the same thing Alyson's mentioned, that it would be great if you could get someone who uses more positive methods to come and speak to your club. If they're not up for that, maybe they'd let you do a presentation? I wouldn't frame it as showing them a "better" way, but just showing them some different things that have worked for you that they might find helpful. But definitely getting them clued in on body language would be helpful.

As far as what you should have done with the visiting e-collar trainer, I think you already realize that dissing him in front of everyone wasn't the way to go, although I can totally understand your frustration. You had every right to make the comment you did about conditioning, and when he laughed and laughed, IMO your club president or someone should have stepped in and asked that all members be respected--just as they asked that the presenter be respected. It's unfortunate. But overall, change does happen over time and I believe that if you keep showing how well trained your dog is, people will start to ask about your methods. That's really all any of us can do, keep getting the education out there, take the high road, and be patient. And know that there ARE others out here who support you, even if they aren't in your geographic area. Keep in touch with that support via the APDT, DogStarDaily, and wherever else you can find it. Hang in there!

Nicole

I find this MUCH harder to deal with in clients, that is people who work with the very same dogs that I work with. I hate to see the progress get screwed up and I really hate to see a dog cringing, which to me is an indication that he has been abused. I want to protect all the dogs who pass through my doors and I can't always do that and it just really hurts that I can't.

But I am learning that a big part of being a professional trainer is the showmanship (IE, the "convincing") involved. And showmanship isn't always dog tricks, but sometimes, it's human tricks, as when trainers (like Cesar Milan is a great example)  convince their vulnerable audience that punishment isn't really aversive, that the problem is all the woman's fault, etc. Punishment reinforces the punishers. People who are addicted to punishing are really eager to hear someone say, "It doesn't bother the dog at all!" and they pay good money to hear it. Also part of the "convincing" is making stuff up. I hear trainers make up stuff about "what behavior science says" or about what other trainers do or how other methods work that might be completely inaccurate, but that serves the purposes of whatever idea they are trying to sell.  Oh well. Mattress salemen do that too.  Buyer beware. Listen to several salespeople, with many different points of view before you buy!

But showmanship of the salemanship variety is not how anyone really learns to apply a training method. We need a results based practice, not a he said/she said practice. So competitions and performances motivate practice and provide evidence, tough cases provide another sort of evidence, of what really works. I love it when people bring impossible dogs to me, I take advantage of performance opportunities, I am starting to compete, because I am collecting evidence that anyone can recognize. Proof is in the pudding.  But what about when I go to an event, and the presenter is controlling the environment and manipulating perceptions, and I disagree vehemently or even slightly with things the speaker is promoting? What if I read an internet discussion that curdles my brain? If that's THEIR turf, they control it, it's their time to spout and shine. So I don't participate unless I think I will learn from the process. I definitely stop participating when the wading gets too deep.  At a seminar, we need to just hear the speaker make his or her case, and then we can review the seminar, the book, the DVD whatever, just as in any other field. I've reviewed restaurants and art shows and dog books and dog seminars too. If a trainer doesn't want his or her work to be reviewed, they shouldn't present it. If they don't want to be disparaged in public, they should go back home and go to bed, becuase I don't know any other way to avoid. There is TOUGH competition in dog training now, competiting ideas and dogs and people. We need to be pretty tough if we hope to be able to make our own case on our own turf and on our own terms, and we do need to be prepared to defend our method with hard evidence.

Jenny Ruth Yasi Whole Dog Camp www.wholedogcamp.com

I find myself relating, but thankfully I can not say that I have had to endure such an extremely emotionally difficult situation as you have and continue to do so on an ongoing basis.

Thank you for having the courage and strength to continue to believe in positive reward based methods.   

I have found what helps me when I am outnumbered is:

1- turning off my emotional switch - Patricia McConnell's book "For the love of a dog" was instrumental a long time ago in helping me take a step back and realize the science behind behaviours such as anger and aggression whether it be human or animal.

I use that book even now when I encounter a person so blinded by their anger and ego that they are not able to see the truth.

I now find myself holding tight and realizing that what these people are doing or saying is not coming from a compassionate place in their hearts.  Being able to show them compassion, and if you have the opportunity to demonstrate or verbally say something to describe the success that you have using an alternate method...that sometimes works for me.  I don't say my method's better or anything like that.

Although it may not seem to make a difference at that particular moment in time...I believe the bio-feedback does wonders for a person's soul and subconsciously you've just planted a seed.  A healthy positive seed in their brain.  You never know, reframing the picture for that person, he may go home and secretly try something on his own!  Maybe not, but atleast the seed has been planted.

2- I've order Nicole Wilde's book  Energy Healing for Dogs: Using Hands-On Healing to Improve Canine Health and Behavior  

I can hardly wait till it arrives!!!! Another thing I've learnt from a score of healthy positive reward based trainers is what I can do to communicate to dogs and also people through my own words, actions and emotions (bio-feedback) that will diffuse and or hopefully create an environment in which a healthy conversation or discussion can take place.  

Either that, or at the very least I have learned that I can send out warm comforting energy to both dog and human, which comforts me!  There's nothing like feeling a genuine emotion from another especially when you are having a bad day... sometimes it's a turning point for them.

3-Enjoy your relationship with your dog...celebrate the superstar qualities that they have and equally their limitations. There is nothing that pulls at everyone's heartstrings when watching a dog and their human be completely immersed and committed to eachothers happiness.  

Watching a dog that is obedient for the sake of their own safety is definitely not the same as watching a team embrace a challenge with all their hearts.  The more people see us embrace our dogs for who they are and our pledge to their emotional and physical health...the more chance of it being contagious.

A smile or laugh is just as if not more contagious than frustration or anger. 

very best of luck!

happy-houndz.blogspot.com cheers, kate

I agree with the comment that you should try and get a demo by a positive trainer. I've been where you are (but not to such an extent - at least people didn't laugh at me or get angry at me - not outwardly anyway).

Try not to get frustrated and angry - although its hard. Think of all the dogs lives you will be enriching if you even manage to get through to one or two of the other trainers. Its a slow process though.

Since they seem to be "competition based" try to get a positive trainer who has achieved great competition results to give a demonstration. We did and it got through to most of our trainers. She was just an awesome dog trainer who had achieved great results through positive methods and had AWESOME dogs just itching to work for her, tails a wagging. We did an interactive demo where the trainers brought their dogs along. She taught them a new "trick" using shaping and luring methods and positive reinforcement. The results spoke for themselves. This was the turning point for many in our club. It is a slow process - but very rewarding in the end.

I find that (whilst its hard to do) try and be calm and never dismiss anyone's training methods (its just gets them offside and they won't listen to anything you say afterwards). I try a "yeah, I can see you are getting results there but have you tried this way..." and again, just using your dogs as a shining example.

Good luck. Its a hard path but on behalf of the dog's lives you will be enriching -thank you!