5 Myths About Training Dogs With Treats

I love number 5, it always makes me chuckle. Do those trainers consider what Guide Dogs do, or Dogs for Disabled do, as "tricks" ?  

It does baffle me that anti-'food as reward' trainers will happily spend the rest of their lives without phasing out leash jerks, but would not want to use food rewards (for fear that they could never phase those out).... 

I do think some clicker trainers do not put enough emphasis on phasing out the treats, so there probably are quite a few people who are "doing it wrong" and this isn't helping the debate!   I remember the first clicker class I went to, with my dog; there was very little said about phasing out the treats ( or increasing criteria) and no guidance on when to start doing this.  As a result, most of the class were still luring and rewarding at the end of the 8 weeks!!!  

My dad has used all those reasons, stated above, to tell me I'm doing it wrong.  I did ask him a while ago to tell me how he would teach a dog to close the door with no food rewards & a choke chain, I'm still waiting on an answer.......  I'll be bookmarking this to show him :)  Thanks. 

is the argument I frequently see against positive methods vs Cesar's methods.  This, most often, from people who don't understand HOW to use food when working with aggression, who put the dog in a situation that causes it to react and then try to distract it with treats.  Again, bribe vs. reward. 

As for dogs working for praise, I also think this myth stems from the traditional training methods that so many people are familiar with.  If the traditional trainer has good timing with their punishment, the praise indicates the end or avoidance of punishment, making it much more rewarding than it would be, otherwise.

Great points, all.  Thanks for sharing!

I'll always carry treats in my pockets! You never know when you're going to meet someone who hasn't given them a try :)

My Beagles taught me long ago that having an ego gets in the way of embracing Buddha nature.  I can't to this day, wrap my head around some of the things I hear and see regarding treatment of people or animals that are clearly ego based.  

Being a Beagle (well two), and Aussie dog mom, I am forever grateful for their love of food, joie de vie, hilarious or sometimes unbecoming antics that humble me when I think I've learnt all there is to know.  

I also appreciate their patience while I go back to the drawing board to figure out how to communicate what I'd love to see if there's something I think needs to be addressed.  Ego based methods are not an option for me.  I don't care what people say, as long as I am true to my heart and continue to grow as a compassionate, benevolent person, I'm happy.

No regrets here, if anything I am always bursting at the seams to share everything I've learnt.  Cues or tricks, they have no idea which is which, it's all fun and games for us.  Cookies, toys, and life rewards make things interesting, they're always keen to learn something new. 

It still amazes me to this day how much we enjoy learning new things. ie..The weather has been crummy so I recently taught one of my beagles 8yrs old, Daizy, to play "indoor"soccer. I hide the ball in another room, have her "find it" and push it back to where I am, then try to "score" a goal by pushing the ball past my legs.

Just this week I taught my Aussie to come help me in goal ! With lure, prompts or shaping behaviours the things you can come up with to teach or entertain yourselves are as limited as your imagination! 

happy-houndz.blogspot.com cheers, kate

It is amazing the level of ignorance involved when the use of using food as a reward comes up, as it frequently does at the local dog parks.

One pleasant couple recently complained of having difficulty socializing their 2 yr. old Shep X which they adopted just last month. Nice enough dog which is very fearful and shy around people. I always carry treats with me and asked them for permission to give their dog a few to loosen her up a tad.

Over the course of 15 minutes I rewarded their dog with a treat whenever she would approach me when I called her. By the time I left, the dog was already showing signs of (Hey, meeting people is something I could get used too.)

Prior to leaving I gave them some suggestions for some simple training protocols and some recommendations for local R+ trainers. When I left I thought that all was good.

Fast forward one week and I noticed the couple and their dog at the same dog park. Their dog came right up to me sniffing for a treat which I did not give. (I never treat without the owners permission.) All of a sudden the women came up to me and berated me for giving her dog 'food.' I explained that I did not give her dog any food but she continued to be loud and hostile until I raised my voice and told her in no uncertain terms that I did not give her dog a treat. She finally said, "Well, I know how you like to give food to dogs and we just don't believe in that."

I was rather dumbfounded by the entire experience and proceeded to a section of the park far removed from where she and her dog were located. Observing her dog I could not help but notice that the dog remained shy, fearful and timid, but at least he wasn't being bribed with food.

My wife now won't allow us to visit that particular dog park unless "the crazy couple" are not there.

Deborah Flick
www.boulderdog.net

Eric,

You nailed it! I've bookmarked this post so I can pass it on as needed which will, no doubt, be often.

And, indeed, you are on-point about treats being just another positive reinforcer for "good" dog trainers.

But, the truth is, I think, that most ordinary people are terrible dog trainers! Their timing is way too slow, usually, and sometimes too fast. Their behavior observational skills are next to nil; their dog is throwing yawns and tongue flicks and head turns and they will tell you their dog is "just fine." They give their dog mixed cues. They confuse their dogs. I could go on.

Here's my point. Given that so many people are so bad at dog training, wouldn't it be better if they just went ahead and "bribed" the dog to get the behavior they want rather than jerk the poor thing around by a choke chain? Wouldn't it be better to carry a few treats than a remote for a shock collar? Think about it. If you have to have something in your hand or pocket, why not goodies rather than a device of torture? I mean, I'm just saying.

What I love about using treats is the fact that you don't have to be perfect right off the bat. 

 I'm working towards my certification, have helped out in puppy and beginner classes along with privates and have come to realize that while it's easier on the puppy or dog if you are on fire with your timing of treats, tone of voice and body language to communicate clearly what you'd love to see happen... it's unfair to the owner to have that expectation.

What I find absolutely brilliant about puppies or dogs is that they can turn off "our volume" and hone in our body language to see if there's something in it that will give them a clue to what we're trying to express.  Treats, toys, rewards ensures they continue to engage in the game of charades!

In turn when I work with people, I turn down the volume of their voices, words that they "think" the dog understands.  Listen to what sort of training methods they've tried, then get them to work.  Understanding where someone is coming from gives me an idea where to start.  I start off with the flashy stuff that's simple for their puppy / dog to learn (reading a dog so you know what type of cues they'll learn quickly is key..that's my job).

I encourage the owner,  even if it's only the body language or tone of voice...it's a start!  It's where I started too!  

Keeping a person's enthusiasm high have converted a number of people who just needed to see the value in it.

The dog or puppy eventually learns the cue and has fun at the same time, by the time the owner gets his timing and uses the same word consistently as a cue, the dog is challenged to use its thinking cap.  In the end, with the trainer's help reviewing the process, they have a better understanding of the learning curve.  They get their groove on :)

I have a video of my private on my blog to remind me of one of the fun privates ( a DW convert)  the owner who challenged my use of treats.  It's not perfect but within the first couple mins, he got the hang of things...his body language, treats, toys,  to help the puppy understand what he was trying to communicate.  His words were inconsistent, but thanks to the patience of his puppy who was reading his body... they ended the private on a high.

happy-houndz.blogspot.com cheers, kate

Eric, this is an excellent post!  The word has such a negtive connotation that I try not to even use it.  Instead I try to educate my students/clients about rewards in general and explain each different types and then refer to using food rewards and/or toy rewards from that point on.

Director of Training and Behavior Counseling Pup 'N Iron Host of Dog Sports and Performance Network on Pet Life Radio

A treat is different than a food reward. Maybe it's just semantics to some, but I find what it's called changes the perception.

I give my dogs occassional treats just cuz, and it's not always about food. Sleeping in bed with me is a treat for Dune, for example.

I use food as one of many rewards for a job well done in training.

Kelly Gorman Dunbar Editor, Dog Star Daily

I find this attitude is not isolated to training. Environmental enrichment comes up against the same attitudes towards food dispensing toys (FDT).

I am a huge advocate of environmental enrichment, having published a book on the topic (and writing more) as well as having a website dedicated to the topic (www.petsneedalifetoo to preview the book too). I find many people are resistent to using FDT for reasons such as they don't want their animal to become "food obsessed" or they don't want to deprive their animal.

I have been abused by friends for these two very reasons with one friend advising me she thought I was being very cruel for feeding my dog predominatly via FDT. None of these friends could recognise the enjoyment my dog gets from the toys or the fact that it helps one of my dogs with his anxiety problems and I give them to him so he won't chew the furniture or something else inappropriate. In fact they believe the FDT contribute to the anxiety.

I initially asked one friend to help test some of the toys when I was researching the book and was asked in an irritated fashion why they all had to be food orientated as he felt the FDT would make the dog food obsessed. he did not see that in a way his dog was focused on food all the time, waiting for that illicit morsal to drop onto the floor especially at BBQ's.

I find many of my clients very reluctant to use FDT primarily for these reasons - it is satisfying when I finally manage to encourage someone to try one, to get an enthusiastic report back as to how much their pet enjoys it. It can be very hard to change peoples habits of a life time and get them to recoginse a "lifestyle" choice & change from feeding from a bowl and making feed time more exciting, rewarding and  lasting longer rather than finished in one gulp!

Gillian Shippen - QVN & author: Pets Need A Life Too!

I am training my Chessie as a hunting retriever, and I am constantly challenged with training at very long distances. Food treats are a non-starter at 150 yards or more.  And, the behaviors I am training are not easy for the trainer or the dog.  Because I will not use e-collars, or other 'force/pressure' training methodology, I am always having to think things through and find a different way to train.

But, I have learned that you don't have to have treats.  But, you do have to have a way to reinforce the correct response.  It seems to me, as unscientific as it may be, that a verbal reward marker, and verbal praise go a long way toward keeping the dog in the game while he is struggling to learn what I am struggling to teach.

"Train the dog you have in front of you...not the one you wished you had."

A friend, colleague and training partner came across my post (above) and thought it might be misleading with regard to my use of treats for training advanced field work for retrievers.  So, allow me to clarify.

I do, as a matter of practice use food treats as rewards in many ways, but not often at the advanced levels where distances are great.  I used lure/reward training (and treats) extensively for basic obedience, and I still use them to introduce a new task to the dog.  But, I move to a ‘life reward’, which is frequently getting to retrieve a  training bumper or bird as soon as the dog has the basic idea up close and personal. 

Additionally, I will use food treats as an additional reward for effort when the dog is struggling with a difficult concept like (‘Go straight out away from me, into that field, in the direction I send you, to an unknown (to the dog) destination, and oh, yes, please ignore every distraction you see and smell, don’t be thrown off line by terrain features, ditches, bodies of water, wind, or anything else that pulls you off the straight line I sent you on.”) 

Of course, no dog can actually do all of that perfectly, so you end up having to stop the dog at various places along the way and redirect them toward their still unseen destination. You end up stopping the dog with a whistle cue, and giving the dog a visual cue about which way you want him to go next.  Just getting the dog to stop, turn around facing you, and sit when he’s 50-150 yards away is a challenge, and you can’t run out and pop a treat in his mouth.  The reward comes at the end of the several ‘casts’ when the dog sees the bumper or bird and gets to retrieve it.  When the dog returns from that kind of multi-tasking chain of cues and responses, and has shown great effort throughout it all – he gets a food treat party, and lots of praise, and probably a ‘fun bumper’ that he can retrieve and do anything he wants with, like run a  ‘victory lap’.

None of this would be possible without the use of a verbal reward marker which the dog learned at a very early age means he is doing very well indeed and a reward of some kind is forthcoming.  Sometimes my dog will start out running strong on the correct line but he begins to lose a bit of confidence that you can see in his body language and a slight change in stride.  I give him a reward marker ‘GOOD!’, and he finds another gear and continues on confidently.

But, unless I’m introducing a new concept for the dog, I don’t routinely carry treats on my person.  I use other ‘life rewards’ and try to rely on self-rewarding behaviors as much as possible.

Some say it won’t work for just any dog.  That may be the case, but my dog is a Chesapeake Bay Retriever, and they say you need a 2 x 4 to train a Chessie.  That has not been my experience.

So, to restate – treats at a 150 yards are a non-starter because you can’t run a treat out to your dog when he does something correctly in any kind of meaningful time frame.  You must use other ‘life rewards’ for reinforcement.  The use of reward markers has proven very effective, but that depends upon early training where, in my case,  a food reward is paired with a reward marker.

Sorry for the length.  Hope this clarifies.  I also hope it helps to demolish some of the myths about ‘treat’ training, which is the topic of this blog.

"Train the dog you have in front of you...not the one you wished you had."